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Some Musings on Mathematics

solipsys.co.uk

21–30 of 49 posts

Re: Some Musings on Mathematics

#21
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which is a long way of saying > that ... I am no math dummy ... Actually, what it makes clear is that you never encountered any real pure math. You only ever encountered what gets done in school under the heading math. Not the same thing. In fact, very far from the same thing. > I don't feel I understand the > point being made. ... If the > desire is to explain something > to people ... then it probably > isn't suc…

Let me restate my point: If you are trying to help "laymen" get some point, it isn't very clearly written. Singling me out and talking down to me in public in no way improves your actual article. Note to self: Stop trying to help other people. It's a bad habit that only comes back to bite me.

[deleted]

Re: Some Musings on Mathematics

#22
"The interesting thing is that stuff from pure maths ends up being useful anyway, even when they were studied just because they were interesting at the time."

I agree with this statement. In fact, I am inclined to believe that it is not by chance that the results in pure mathematics become useful in the real world.

Much of math is dealing with hypothetical situations before they arise. These hypothetical situations may have real world analogs, or they may just be solutions to other abstract problems. While its real world utility is often obscured due to the lack of an immediate direct application, the truth is that by definition, the results derived will be useful if and when an apt situation arises. Granted, many results may never see the light of day, but are still potentially useful in inspiring solutions that require a novel way of thinking.

To judge mathematics based on its current real-world utility would be extremely short sighted. We probably would not have much of the technology we have today if mathematicians in the bygone era decided that they would stop developing it due to the lack of a real world application.

Now there are definitely certain things which can in no conceivable way be applied to the real world, such as the concept of infinity, but those concepts seem to complete a comprehensive framework for us to think about problems.

Re: Some Musings on Mathematics

#23
post #4

Two quotes that sums up this article for me: "The whole point of pure maths is that there are problems to solve, and you're working to solve them." "So why don't we do what we did before? When we couldn't solve equations like x+8=5 we invented the negative numbers. When we couldn't solve equations like 3x=5 we invented fractions. When we couldn't solve equations like x2-x-1=0 we invented the algebraic numbers." To me…

> To me, I look at math as a collaborative language of precision in dealing with units.

Although this might apply for early number theory, how does it fit with more abstract mathematics that doesn't deal with numbers, let alone units, at all?

However, I completely agree math (as in the human practice) is a collaborative and inventive process. The directions in which it progresses is often determined by what mathematicians consider "interesting", and not some purely analytical and sterile reasoning.

Re: Some Musings on Mathematics

#24
post #6

To me, personally and practically, mathematics became impactful, and even beautiful when I came to the realization that it was a universal modeling notation for comprehending our world. Math did not come easy to me, but as I persevered through my aerospace engineering degree I came to appreciate its importance to, and role in modeling. There is so much churn in systems modeling approaches such as SysML and UML et al,…

The thing you realized is also what the guy is arguing is not the case. There's no one right view, but that's the point of his argument.

> There's no one right view

How can you possibly know that?

Re: Some Musings on Mathematics

#25
> Pure Number Theory is motivated by applications in cryptography,

> Pure Calculus is motivated by applications in ballistics and weather forecasting,

> Pure Combinatorics is motivated by analysis of computer networks and data processing,

> Pure Statistics is motivated by life assurance, insurance and gambling,

> Pure Linear Algebra is motivated by optimization problems and Google's Page Rank algorithm.

Math is really sweet, math allows you to make so much, just look around you. I see it as the most powerful, low level, oldest (probably) API in the world. And it's mostly free and open source ! Math gives you tools and tells you in what context they work and don't work. Then it's up to you using it to make or understand something cool. Actually, math purposely tries to abstract itself as much as possible from reality in order to give you a robust framework to work with.

I think this quote of David Hilbert's response upon hearing that one of his students had dropped out to study poetry made me understand why pure math and applied math were two distinct fields: "Good, he did not have enough imagination to become a mathematician" [1]

Like honestly, who cares about whether or not all simply connected closed 3-manifold are homeomorphic to a 3-sphere. But the understanding it brings us about the behavior of manifolds in particular contexts is very real. Whether it's useful or not isn't a pure mathematician's problem though :D (but the truth is that it probably is, just that somebody else will make use of that)

[1] http://www.amazon.com/The-Universal-Book-Mathematics-Abracad... pp. 151 (according to wikipedia, I haven't read the book)

Re: Some Musings on Mathematics

#26

> The truth is far simpler. Mathematicians are solving puzzles, and some of those puzzles don't come from the real world at all, and can't be motivated in that way. The real question the "outsiders" are asking are not because they deeply care why you (the "pure" mathematicians) spend your time any particular way. The real question behind the question is why should the larger society support this endeavor (by way of r…

Not always. Sometimes "outsiders" just want some kind of insight as to why you do what you do all day; they're curious. A mathematician interested in engaging with the public has to try and identify which question is being asked. It's actually slightly dangerous to assume that your interlocutor is only interested in utility, because this type of answer can come across as disingenuous or dismissive.

I don't think that whenever someone asks an artist or writer what the "point" of their work is that they're looking for a justification for allocating public funds to it. They might want that, but they also might want some kind of insight into or identification with the intrinsic motivation for the work.

Re: Some Musings on Mathematics

#27
> Why do we care that there are only five Platonic Solids? The true answer is because there is an answer, and it would be intolerable not to know it

I see a few holes with this argument:

1) Who is this "we"? I'm sure not all non-"non-mathematicians" agree with this sentiment.

2) If a mathematician is still looking for an answer to a question, they don't yet know if an answer exists or not (see: Godel, halting problem). Perhaps this should be rephrased "because there might be an answer and it would be unbearable not to know it if it did exist."

3) The argument is circular (calling not knowing bad doesn't answer why knowing is good).

Re: Some Musings on Mathematics

#28

> Why do we care that there are only five Platonic Solids? The true answer is because there is an answer, and it would be intolerable not to know it I see a few holes with this argument: 1) Who is this "we"? I'm sure not all non-"non-mathematicians" agree with this sentiment. 2) If a mathematician is still looking for an answer to a question, they don't yet know if an answer exists or not (see: Godel, halting problem…

1) Since he seems to be talking about mathematicians, that's actually likely - but not necessarily relevant.

2) Mountaineers climb mountains. Musicians make music. Artists make art. Developers make code. To varying degrees, everyone suffers from the same problem. And people who are exceptional in their fields are far more likely to find not pursuing their passion intolerable.

3) Considering how useful pure maths turn out to be - often in completely unexpected ways - I'm quite happy to leave pure maths types to do what they do.

Even if the hit rate were one gamechanger a century, that's still an exceptionally good return. (The actual return seems to be much higher than that.)

Re: Some Musings on Mathematics

#29
Here's how I explain "pure math" to people, based on my experience taking a highly theory-oriented linear algebra course and thinking that "this stuff couldn't possibly be useful." Boy, was I wrong...

I think of (pure) mathematics as exploring the structures generated by simple rules. You start with some system of axioms, maybe those of group theory or linear algebra, and you see where it takes you. Often, there are richer, but closely related structures available by adding additional axioms or constraints. For example, add commutativity to group theory and you get abelian groups. Add metrics to vector spaces and you get topology (sorta).

This is useful because the world is full of complex systems that emerge from simple rules. Therefore, when we observe that some system in the real world displays the characteristics of a known mathematical structure, we inherit a bunch of free knowledge about that system.

In practice, most math falls on some spectrum between the above definition and "applied math". Historically speaking, it's a pretty modern idea (although its pedigree begins with Euclid). Before the mid-nineteenth century, mathematicians had indeed been chasing puzzles like "how to find the roots of polynomials" and "can you square a circle using constructions?" for several centuries. And puzzles are certainly not dead, as the millenium prize clearly shows. Number theory also doesn't play nice with this definition. I intentionally ignored that - if I start thinking about the ontology of numbers I risk losing quite a bit of sleep :p.

Re: Some Musings on Mathematics

#30
People without at least a masters in math are in no place to make commentary on math. 98% of the time it makes me cringe.

That being said, pure math is when you invest in the tool, applied math is when you invest in the problem. There is a very similar relationship in programming.

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