The Weakness of the .NET OSS Ecosystem • Hacker News Board

Re: The Weakness of the .NET OSS Ecosystem

#191

Post by WorldWideWayne » Fri, Jul 24, 2015, 4:06 PM UTC

eropple wrote: post #188

tacos wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"polyglot microservice architectures" eh? Hey Bill! We've got 20 years of legacy code that handles everything from Arrivals Boards to seat assignments in 1627 different aircraft configurations. We got a room full of .NET devs downstairs. How about we re-write everything in multiple languages! Remember that time we went down for two days because we muffed up our NET 2.0 to 4.0 migration? Imagine how much fun we'll hav…

Here's the thing: literally none of that is right. You had to assume a lot of facts not in evidence to be that much of a jerk. It was a big task. But you did it! - Almost every developer was converted to .NET to work there, because Microsoft's credibility among startup-focused developers is not great outside of a few specific tools like SQL Server. It's a lot easier to get enough hands to get the job done when you le…

Sounds like you work at a startup, not an "enterprise-by-any-reasonable-standard place".

Lying to shape your argument doesn't really fly around here.

EDIT: Furthermore, looking at your sites pretty much proves that you're a liar. You don't work at some enterprise shop that just decided to go open source, you're a consultant that pushes open source.

Re: The Weakness of the .NET OSS Ecosystem

#192

Post by eropple » Fri, Jul 24, 2015, 4:36 PM UTC

WorldWideWayne wrote: post #191

eropple wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the thing: literally none of that is right. You had to assume a lot of facts not in evidence to be that much of a jerk. It was a big task. But you did it! - Almost every developer was converted to .NET to work there, because Microsoft's credibility among startup-focused developers is not great outside of a few specific tools like SQL Server. It's a lot easier to get enough hands to get the job done when you le…

Sounds like you work at a startup, not an "enterprise-by-any-reasonable-standard place". Lying to shape your argument doesn't really fly around here. EDIT: Furthermore, looking at your sites pretty much proves that you're a liar. You don't work at some enterprise shop that just decided to go open source, you're a consultant that pushes open source.

From my original post:

> I'm currently consulting

Yes, very lie.

The remarkable thing is that I don't need to push anything (well, okay, I pushed Chef over Ansible, because for nontrivial setups you end up needing some sort of unified orchestration layer and at that point you might as well use the more mature Chef than Ansible Tower). The still-Windows shops I talk to are pretty unified in their desire to branch out into other languages and environments. That one in particular was sold and already well underway before they brought me on-board to help them through it. But, y'know. Whatever you want to believe, chief. :)

Re: The Weakness of the .NET OSS Ecosystem

#193

Post by WorldWideWayne » Fri, Jul 24, 2015, 4:47 PM UTC

eropple wrote: post #192

WorldWideWayne wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like you work at a startup, not an "enterprise-by-any-reasonable-standard place". Lying to shape your argument doesn't really fly around here. EDIT: Furthermore, looking at your sites pretty much proves that you're a liar. You don't work at some enterprise shop that just decided to go open source, you're a consultant that pushes open source.

From my original post: > I'm currently consulting Yes, very lie. The remarkable thing is that I don't need to push anything (well, okay, I pushed Chef over Ansible, because for nontrivial setups you end up needing some sort of unified orchestration layer and at that point you might as well use the more mature Chef than Ansible Tower). The still-Windows shops I talk to are pretty unified in their desire to branch out…

Let's quote the whole thing, shall we?

> I wonder why, then, the enterprise-by-any-reasonable-standard place I'm currently consulting is moving away from .NET and Windows...

This was in response to someone who said that Microsoft non-open .NET framework and Windows works really well for most enterprise shops.

Then you come along with your anecdote that "the 'enterprise' place I'm currently consulting at is moving away from Windows" as if that were some sort of trend that you just happened to be involved in.

I bet it's not even a typical enterprise. Tell the truth - it's a game company, right? Or something else that is equally non-enterprisey...

Re: The Weakness of the .NET OSS Ecosystem

#194

Post by bphogan » Fri, Jul 24, 2015, 4:49 PM UTC

buckbova wrote: post #54

lectrick wrote: post #18

I'm glad that Microsoft is absorbing enough young guys who went through college realizing open-source is cool to actually influence their future direction, but based on the entire self-interested history of Microsoft ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish or http://www.pcworld.com/article/2901262/microsoft-tightens-wi... or http://techrights.org/2010/09/17/microsoft-management-mocks-... ) and…

Just so you know, when I went through college 15 years ago or so and we used open source technologies too. Nobody I went to school with was dying to use whatever vb/asp/iis or jboss server was out there or use windows anything at all. But, if you get hired at MS and they want you to work on the mssql team, you're not going to recommend they scrap it for mysql.

But there are many places out there that will swap out MySQL or PG for MSQL because it's Microsoft and they all know C#. I had, and have, a really hard time with people who only know the MS way of doing things. I have always taken issue with software developers who only know one language, because I think they're missing out on seeing different ways to look at problems. But the .Net people take it a step further and only look at things from MS. Even if Nancy is a great framework, they wait till WebAPI is available.

And when I've gone to speak at conferences, I'd show things like Sass and livereload, only to have them scoff at me and say "if it isn't in Visual Studio, it's not worth learning." And when VS included live reloading, it was the Greatest Thing Ever.

Just like how ASP.Net MVC came along. People actually argued with me that Microsoft invented that concept. Despite the fact that the very first version looked a lot like a C# version of Rails and Spring.

So that's a chip on my shoulder that I have to get over. Hopefully since the people I know followed MS before, they'll follow them in this new direction.

Re: The Weakness of the .NET OSS Ecosystem

#195

Post by lenocinor » Fri, Jul 24, 2015, 5:49 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #184

brightball wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> RoR did not invent MVC. Well aware of that. Was pointing out that Microsoft named their framework MVC as if they did.

They named their framework ASP.Net MVC, as it is an MVC framework for ASP.Net, The naming isn't that problematic. Lots of people in the close-minded cult of Microsoft (which does not include all Microsoft devs.) both shorten the name to "MVC" (which isn't necessarily bad in certain contexts) and have little-to-no understanding of what MVC is other than ASP.Net MVC, so both themselves confuse the pattern with the Micr…

And there's Spring MVC too. It's not like only Microsoft is doing that sort of thing.

Re: The Weakness of the .NET OSS Ecosystem

#196

Post by craigmcnamara » Fri, Jul 24, 2015, 6:37 PM UTC

jevgeni wrote: post #172

bsder wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is a distinct lack of OSS in .NET. I've been trying to find a project to contribute to among the graveyard on Github. However, I think the author falls flat explaining the why. Simple, Microsoft killed it with the transition to .NET. People have forgotten just how extensive both the open and paid ecosystems were around Visual Basic 6 circa 1999-2001. Those ecosystems were huge --they absolutely dwarfed open s…

The switch from older (VB6, etc) model to .NET could be compared to the switch from Python 2 to 3, only MS didn't wuss out and actually made the braking change instead of dragging everything out. You can call it "stabbing". I'd call it "necessary progress". Just because an ecosystem is large doesn't mean it's good. I once tried to switch the automation in our team from batch files to Ruby. Huge mistake. Try finding a…

It sounds like you just don't know how to use Ruby and Rake. Rake doesn't depend on Rails and is a system for automating things and resolving dependencies. It's also cross platform(Mac, Linux and Windows) and has plenty of Books, Blogs and documentation. It sounds like you got scared of something you didn't know how to use. I started Ruby with a weekend of study and a background in C++ and Java, and I've been doing it for 7 years. When you try new things, try harder.

Re: The Weakness of the .NET OSS Ecosystem

#197

Post by fineman » Fri, Jul 24, 2015, 6:44 PM UTC

jameshart wrote: post #87

fineman wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can we begin to move on a little? Why? Why should we forget that the entire company (currently) is funded by the crimes of the past? Are they a person who made mistakes when young and now deserves a second chance? I'm not anti-capitalistic but I'd never deal with, for example, a consultancy that cheated me in the past even if they had all new consultants and managers - some things just don't change. And even if...…

And if people never offer forgiveness, then there's no incentive for them to improve. I guess you're just hoping that if you ignore them they'll go away?

If we all ignored them, and their products, they would go away. Capitalism.

I don't care to offer them a way to improve; their future success isn't my problem.

Why do you feel the need to make Microsoft the victim?

Re: The Weakness of the .NET OSS Ecosystem

#198

Post by ectoplasm » Fri, Jul 24, 2015, 7:33 PM UTC

sklogic wrote: post #176

ectoplasm wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for clarifying. I think tail call conversion to iteration for Java bytecode could be added to a JVM implementation without changing the spec, and you could also do it when converting F# to bytecode. Apparently it's on the todo list but not high priority. Stack allocation is trickier if it's specified in F# code, because it isn't part of the VM spec, but automatic stack allocation for Java has been demonstrated…

> I think tail call conversion to iteration You cannot convert a tail call to an iteration in a generic case. Consider the following: `let f g x = g x` Here, call `g x` is a tail call, and you've no idea what `g` is, so you cannot statically inline it or convert to a loop. > JITs are free to inline beyond that as much as they want JITs are primitive and do not have much time to do anything interesting. Inlining is ve…

How is a "proper tail call" implemented if you aren't talking about conversion to iteration? I found the following article helpful.

http://www.drdobbs.com/jvm/tail-call-optimization-and-java/2...

Re: The Weakness of the .NET OSS Ecosystem

#199

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Jul 24, 2015, 7:40 PM UTC

sklogic wrote: post #176

ectoplasm wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for clarifying. I think tail call conversion to iteration for Java bytecode could be added to a JVM implementation without changing the spec, and you could also do it when converting F# to bytecode. Apparently it's on the todo list but not high priority. Stack allocation is trickier if it's specified in F# code, because it isn't part of the VM spec, but automatic stack allocation for Java has been demonstrated…

> I think tail call conversion to iteration You cannot convert a tail call to an iteration in a generic case. Consider the following: `let f g x = g x` Here, call `g x` is a tail call, and you've no idea what `g` is, so you cannot statically inline it or convert to a loop. > JITs are free to inline beyond that as much as they want JITs are primitive and do not have much time to do anything interesting. Inlining is ve…

> Everyone who ever tried implementing any ML-like language on top of JVM failed miserably.

How is "ML-like" defined here? AFAIK, Haskell is usually considered "ML-like", and Frege is a Haskell dialect implemented on the JVM.

Re: The Weakness of the .NET OSS Ecosystem

#200

Post by blakeyrat » Fri, Jul 24, 2015, 8:31 PM UTC

felixgallo wrote: post #117

blakeyrat wrote: post #111

His main argument seems to center around a "reactive socket server middleware" being absent in the .NET ecosystem. I frankly: 1) don't know what that is, and 2) can't even imagine what it could consist of other than a few lines of code exercising System.Net.Sockets.

then why are you posting, instead of going and learning?

I'd much rather someone write a one-sentence description of what the library does in plain English, so I (and everybody else reading the article) could get the "learning" without the "going".

Since you didn't tell me what it does, I'll assume you have no idea either. ;)