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Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

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Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#191

Post by maxerickson »

sssilver wrote: post #173
maxerickson wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We absolutely should be aiming for number 1. I think I get your point, that it is healthy to be able to deal with the world as it is, but that doesn't mean that we have to accept or embrace it as it is.

What her daughter may perceive as "abuse" can be very subjective. That's why censorship in general is never a good idea. Learning to "dismiss" it as noise is a more scalable and elegant approach, and doesn't limit anyone's freedoms in a subjective way.

I'm not advocating for censorship when I say that we should be aiming to not have people abusing each other. We should be aiming for a society where no one wants to abuse other people.

Maybe that's dreamy-eyed nonsense, but I think when you talk about aims you have to let ideals in, not just stick to what is practical tomorrow.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#192

Post by eli »

lhnz wrote: post #31

Does anybody remember when trolling was a term used to describe an activity in which users wielding enough understanding of other's perspectives would attempt to give other's cognitive dissonance? It seems that one of the most powerful online political classes have lumped hatred and abuse in with disagreement, mockery and satire. I don't think it's good for the conversation between the group of user's that dislike wh…

Like changing the topic of #windows to "PC users wet the bed" during a netsplit? I think you may be viewing the past through rose colored lens.

Regardless, the things people are complaining about on Reddit aren't satire. I don't think a debate over word meanings is helpful.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#193

Post by digi_owl »

fixermark wrote: post #90
partiallypro wrote: post #74

I'm going to disagree. I've been in IRC, Forums, Newsgroups, lurked 4Chan, Reddit, and Slashdot for years. It has actually been evolving to a point, especially among the younger crowd to get bent out of shape about essentially nothing. Maybe that is because more of our lives are online than before, but if you were to go through Twitter and Tumblr and just browse around it is a huge mess of people constantly being off…

Does "Just don't feed the trolls" continue to work in a world where trolls know that SWATting someone is as easy as picking up a phone, and doxxing someone can have significant long-term consequences?

Swating seems to me to go beyond trolling.

They are effectively abusing public resources with potentially fatal outcomes.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#194

Post by digi_owl »

danielweber wrote: post #127
fixermark wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does "Just don't feed the trolls" continue to work in a world where trolls know that SWATting someone is as easy as picking up a phone, and doxxing someone can have significant long-term consequences?

Unfortunately most humans -- and this includes the humans posting on this thread, including me -- suffer from tribalism, and "it's okay when my side does it" overrides all the other rules. Fixing this is really hard and requires constant application of lots of energy.

It is less "its ok because it is my tribe" and more "i will not risk my standing within the tribe by speaking up against this".

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#195

Post by digi_owl »

lhnz wrote: post #31

Does anybody remember when trolling was a term used to describe an activity in which users wielding enough understanding of other's perspectives would attempt to give other's cognitive dissonance? It seems that one of the most powerful online political classes have lumped hatred and abuse in with disagreement, mockery and satire. I don't think it's good for the conversation between the group of user's that dislike wh…

Bingo, the whole thing has taken on the contours of a psyops with the goal of silencing the opposition under the guise of "trolling".

More and more political debates have turned to a battle of "framing" rather than actually debating the positive and negative sides of some action (or inaction).

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#196

Post by lhnz »

eli wrote: post #192
lhnz wrote: post #31

Does anybody remember when trolling was a term used to describe an activity in which users wielding enough understanding of other's perspectives would attempt to give other's cognitive dissonance? It seems that one of the most powerful online political classes have lumped hatred and abuse in with disagreement, mockery and satire. I don't think it's good for the conversation between the group of user's that dislike wh…

Like changing the topic of #windows to "PC users wet the bed" during a netsplit? I think you may be viewing the past through rose colored lens. Regardless, the things people are complaining about on Reddit aren't satire. I don't think a debate over word meanings is helpful.

No, not at all like that.

Like holding a straight face and carefully putting forwards an extreme position which you do not hold while making use of the correct memes and language so that it appears congruent to outsiders.

A humorous effect is created because a line can be drawn between those of the audience that know what you're doing and those that do not. A selection of the audience watches on as people that are not in the know either get angry with you or agree with your bizarre statements.

It's effectively hidden satire and that's why it was so fun and so potent.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#197

Post by digi_owl »

imron wrote: post #171
ewzimm wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I miss those days when I was proud to be a troll, when it meant tricking people into thinking in ways that they normally wouldn't. People used to love trolls! Of course, it didn't just mean that. There were also troll raids when friends would get together and make silly comments on every thread they could find, crashing the party but having fun with it. The incendiary ones used to be called flamers, but I think that…

> People used to love trolls! No they didn't. > crashing the party but having fun with it. I'm sure you and your friends were having fun with it. The people whose parties you crashed? Probably not so much.

This is starting to look like a debate similar to "where does tagging stop and graffiti begin?".

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#198

Post by digi_owl »

lhnz wrote: post #196
eli wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like changing the topic of #windows to "PC users wet the bed" during a netsplit? I think you may be viewing the past through rose colored lens. Regardless, the things people are complaining about on Reddit aren't satire. I don't think a debate over word meanings is helpful.

No, not at all like that. Like holding a straight face and carefully putting forwards an extreme position which you do not hold while making use of the correct memes and language so that it appears congruent to outsiders. A humorous effect is created because a line can be drawn between those of the audience that know what you're doing and those that do not. A selection of the audience watches on as people that are no…

In essence invoking Poe's Law intentionally.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#199

Post by digi_owl »

partiallypro wrote: post #74

I'm going to disagree. I've been in IRC, Forums, Newsgroups, lurked 4Chan, Reddit, and Slashdot for years. It has actually been evolving to a point, especially among the younger crowd to get bent out of shape about essentially nothing. Maybe that is because more of our lives are online than before, but if you were to go through Twitter and Tumblr and just browse around it is a huge mess of people constantly being off…

Yep, media in their click/eyeball baiting frenzy has become megaphones for the extreme margins. Thus turning molehills into mountain ranges.

Re: Ellen Pao: The Trolls Are Winning the Battle for the Internet

#200

Post by Lawtonfogle »

msandford wrote: post #105
fixermark wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does "Just don't feed the trolls" continue to work in a world where trolls know that SWATting someone is as easy as picking up a phone, and doxxing someone can have significant long-term consequences?

Should we repeal the first amendment because people sometimes used racial or ethnic slurs? Or they deny the moon landing? Or say things that your preferred political party happens to disagree with? Or maybe only things that YOU disagree with?

Better example would be anti-vaxxers. You can point to actual cases of dead children and say this is the penalty of free speech.

Speaking of which, why is anti-vaxxer rhetoric protected even though it contributes to the harm of children. I can think of illegal speech that was banned because of it being harmful to children (and which is likely less lethal than anti-vaxxer rhetoric).

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