We apologize • Hacker News Board

Re: We apologize

#191

Post by dredmorbius » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 1:06 AM UTC

7Z7 wrote: post #160

celticninja wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes but since his mea culpa the community is not holding it against him. One of the mig issues people have with Ellen Pao is that her first responses on the issue were to the NYT, Buzzfeed etc and not directly to her own users.

>One of the mig issues people have with Ellen Pao.. Bullshit, that's just the newest thing they've loaded their blunderbusses with - and is less than days old. It isn't why they've been calling her a cunt and hitler, and asking for her to be fired or killed for months.

Reddit and Redditors, as with HN and its participants, are diverse and contain multitudes.

I moderate a couple of modest subs and have participated on Reddit, generally positively, for three years. Pao hadn't impressed me hugely, though I didn't find her behavior strongly negative. The FPH situation was handled and communicated poorly, but from what I understand, was sound (the banning was based on violations of site rules, not specific expressed opinions).

Pao's personal legal issues have certainly been a distraction, and while I've not obsessed over the case and related issues, she, and her husband, seem to have an interesting history and set of problems.

The blow-up over Taylor was different: it concerned directly trust between Reddit and a small number of very crucial moderators -- /r/IAMA's mod team is 23 users, but the are the gatekeepers to one of Reddit's most valuable features (not one I use much myself, FWIW). The specific roster of complaints from IAMA and other subs affected were on point and material.

The response from the larger Reddit community has varied: some was legit, some expressions of outrage over real or imagined past offenses.

My own views of Pao took a sharp downward note at that point. David Frum and Asher Wolf, neither of whom are pimply-faced teenage boys, both make great observations:

https://twitter.com/Asher_Wolf/status/616834072015339520 "Reddit's users are their product. Reddit is currently discovering where the balance of power lies when a product with opinions revolts."

https://twitter.com/davidfrum/status/616965682517921792 "I'm not following the Reddit thing closely, but one thing seems obvious: corporations shouldn't hire CEOs who hate their product and customers."

I'm also a fan of Merideth L. Patterson's "On Port 80": https://medium.com/@maradydd/on-port-80-d8d6d3443d9a

(My own comments: https://ello.co/dredmorbius/post/jxHO4czSkI3duweJv5XTRA)

It's one thing to have the usual outrage squads raising a ruckus. Another when core subs go dark because the mods have revolted.

That's what pushed this impasse. Pao's been handling it very poorly, though she may still turn things around.

Re: We apologize

#192

Post by dredmorbius » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 1:08 AM UTC

westernmostcoy wrote: post #9

Why did this apology come out today and not before Pao spoke to news outlets about this topic? Why wouldn't you try to talk to your upset users quickly and directly? http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/04/technology/reddit-moderato... http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2015/07/05/420...

Given all the timing, a Monday site announcement, rather than someting buried over the weekend, is sensible.

It would have been preferable if Pao hadn't shot her mouth off to The New York Times over the weekend, with some spectacularly inept remarks cocerning her company and Reddit users.

But timing of this announcement isn't something I'd criticise her for.

There's plenty else for that.

Re: We apologize

#193

Post by dredmorbius » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 1:36 AM UTC

McGlockenshire wrote: post #12

westernmostcoy wrote: post #9

Why did this apology come out today and not before Pao spoke to news outlets about this topic? Why wouldn't you try to talk to your upset users quickly and directly? http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/04/technology/reddit-moderato... http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2015/07/05/420...

If you note her account's history, you might notice that every single one of her contributions has been mass-downvoted, including earlier responses on the matter. Downvoted content gets hidden. There's an ongoing voting war over the submission itself, with only 61% upvoting. That's way, way low for reddit. Speculation: It's very possible that they decided to do press work first so that the message would not be muted…

Brigading and associated behaviors are at the core of many of Reddit's more significant problems. They were among the rationales for the idiotic Search rewrite over the weekend (since then an option to revert has been provided).

I think Reddit's existing moderation system's outlived its usefulness.

Re: We apologize

#194

Post by 001sky » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 1:58 AM UTC

McGlockenshire wrote: post #12

westernmostcoy wrote: post #9

Why did this apology come out today and not before Pao spoke to news outlets about this topic? Why wouldn't you try to talk to your upset users quickly and directly? http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/04/technology/reddit-moderato... http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2015/07/05/420...

If you note her account's history, you might notice that every single one of her contributions has been mass-downvoted, including earlier responses on the matter. Downvoted content gets hidden. There's an ongoing voting war over the submission itself, with only 61% upvoting. That's way, way low for reddit. Speculation: It's very possible that they decided to do press work first so that the message would not be muted…

Can't they just 'pin' the CEO's post to the top?

This reeks of lack of imagination.

Re: We apologize

#195

Post by dredmorbius » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 2:00 AM UTC

Domenic_S wrote: post #163

snowwrestler wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to wonder how many of these issues are the result of poor allocation of limited resources. Reddit runs on a shoestring for an audience that big, and still loses money. As I understand Victoria's position, a full salary went to hand-hold celebrities during AMAs. That's a lot to spend for a portion of the participants in one subreddit (I don't think every AMA got that support). Given limited resources, that mean…

They recently closed a $50MM round. If that's a "shoestring budget" then we really are in a bubble.

Reddit's got a team of 65: https://www.reddit.com/about/team/

Advertising revenue is under $10 million per a link provided earlier today from Merideth Paterson.

I don't know about other revenues (Gold, ??).

$50m/64 gives $781,250 per employee. At $200k/yr spend per employee, that's about a four year run time. How much above or below that depends on revenues, growth plans etc.

That should be reasonably decent bank.

Re: We apologize

#196

Post by vonklaus » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 2:00 AM UTC

psychometry wrote: post #181

evan_ wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean this petition: https://www.change.org/p/ellen-k-pao-step-down-as-ceo-of-red... Which doesn't list any actual specific grievances, but does mention the completely irrelevant gender discrimination lawsuit she was involved with? The one that supporters are signing with openly misogynistic and racist slogans and nicknames? The one that's full of duplicate signatures and obviously fake names? That's the petition…

Let's not forget the genius of not wanting someone who will "sue her way to the top". To the top of what...reddit? She's already the CEO. Whoever wrote that pretty much explicitly dislikes her for the gender discrimination lawsuit and has little to say about her job performance. Really, it's right out of the men's rights playbook: Pretend everyone always gets by on merit alone and anyone disputing that fantasy must b…

Why do you think this is some sexist conspiracy? She lost the lawsuit against KPCB, she tried to blackmail them by threatening appeal and it does speak to her job performance. She was dismissed because she didn't have:

“the ability to lead others, build consensus and be a team player.”[0]

Many people seem to cling to the trope that women are being oppressed and intentionally singled out. This isn't one of those cases. Why do you think it is?

[0]http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/24/magazine/whats-really-at-s...

Re: We apologize

#197

Post by dredmorbius » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 2:05 AM UTC

sanderjd wrote: post #122

celticninja wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes but since his mea culpa the community is not holding it against him. One of the mig issues people have with Ellen Pao is that her first responses on the issue were to the NYT, Buzzfeed etc and not directly to her own users.

Is it a given that responding to the community is the proper role for a CEO? I can envision a configuration of reddit corporate structure where there is a responsive, deeply involved, and powerful "head of community" position who would respond to the community in these situations, while the CEO does more traditional CEO stuff like talking to investors and press (among other things). The problem seems to me to be that…

A key role of the CEO is in addressing key constituencies and stakeholders: investors, business partners, customers, employees. And in Reddit's case, the people who do much of the heavy lifting in managing the forums, and in participating in discussions on the site.

There are limits to how much time you want to dedicate to any one constituency. But yes, when you've got a problem with your mods and users on a mod-and-user-centric company, you talk to the mods and users.

Re: We apologize

#198

Post by dredmorbius » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 2:08 AM UTC

vonklaus wrote: post #98

nahiluhmot wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think parent is trolling?

Calling people emotional children and upset kids is just flame inducing. Maybe that person wasn't actually trolling but it was obvious crafted to illicit an angry response.

Even where trolling is highly probable, "assume good faith" is generally a better tactic.

Re: We apologize

#199

Post by steveklabnik » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 2:17 AM UTC

001sky wrote: post #194

McGlockenshire wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you note her account's history, you might notice that every single one of her contributions has been mass-downvoted, including earlier responses on the matter. Downvoted content gets hidden. There's an ongoing voting war over the submission itself, with only 61% upvoting. That's way, way low for reddit. Speculation: It's very possible that they decided to do press work first so that the message would not be muted…

Can't they just 'pin' the CEO's post to the top? This reeks of lack of imagination.

Given the way this discussion has gone so far, then people will trash the admins for "pushing content they want to the top of the page" or similar.

Re: We apologize

#200

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 2:43 AM UTC

steveklabnik wrote: post #199

001sky wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't they just 'pin' the CEO's post to the top? This reeks of lack of imagination.

Given the way this discussion has gone so far, then people will trash the admins for "pushing content they want to the top of the page" or similar.

[deleted]