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Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10

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Re: Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10

#191

Post by zokier »

sparkie wrote: post #172
zokier wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are massively overthinking this. Dependency tracking and all that jazz are just implementation details of individual backends, the unifying tool does not need to be aware of that at all. Let's say we define basic API with two verbs: SEARCH and INSTALL. When the user wants to install a package the unifying tool first queries backends with SEARCH to see if they have such package, and after resolving which s…

SEARCH is the reason package management is so broken. If a developer intends a particular piece of software to be installed as a dependency, he should convey that to the users, rather than a vague criteria for which the user might hopefully get the right thing. The search needs to return only one result - the right one. If several package managers keep a package of the same name and version, we shouldn't need to keep…

Again I think you are overthinking this. It is perfectly fine for SEARCH to return multiple results, it is intended mostly for interactive use anyways. It won't impact dependency resolution in any way, that would continue to work as it does now, in other words each backend does its own dependency stuff without any regard of any other system.

Re: Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10

#192

Post by mreiland »

WorldWideWayne wrote: post #173
mreiland wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

his point remains. being forced to run 2 servers so your server doesn't go down once/month is a bit ridiculous. No, it isn't untenable, yes you can work around it, but that's a problem that shouldn't need to be worked around.

Is it normal to update server software like PostgreSQL or Redis on Linux without stopping the running process during the update? Maybe Linux doesn't need to restart the OS as often, but you're still going to have down time, right?

You can update the software without pulling it down. In order to use the update you need to restart, but there's a large difference between restarting a service and restarting an OS. It isn't really analogous.

Re: Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10

#193

Post by maccard »

stinos wrote: post #104
maratc wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the one with history going back more than an hour, and tab completions on anything except files in `pwd`.

that's basically what conemu brings

Powershell has had that support for quite a while too.

Re: Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10

#194

Post by lzybkr »

voltagex_ wrote: post #154
lzybkr wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try https://github.com/lzybkr/PSReadLine - included in Windows 10 now.

Hey, do you have an announcement somewhere about it being included in 10? Congratulations, at any rate.

It hasn't been announced anywhere unless you count random tweets. I should post something on the PowerShell team blog one of these days.

Re: Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10

#195

Post by Freaky »

useerup wrote: post #183
ddingus wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always wondered about that. Shouldn't a real OS and filesystem be capable of removing something in use? IRIX always could. So can Linux a whole lot of the time, if not all the time, as can BSD and Mac OS. Here's something: Once I upgraded a pile of IRIX boxes to a new version of some CAD software. A few of them had the older version running... Didn't matter! The files got cached, and those versions continued runnin…

> Shouldn't a real OS and filesystem be capable of removing something in use? It's a choice. Windows specifically uses DLLs as non-dirty swap, i.e. if the memory manager want's to free up pages it may free memory pages used for mapping a least recently used DLL because it will not require it to write any "dirty" memory. A DLL page can never be dirty. Windows knows that it really easy to read in the image again (from…

This is no different from the situation in Linux, BSD etc, where executables and libraries are simply mapped into the process with mmap() - they're backed by the files and the system is free to discard those clean memory pages as it sees fit.

When you install(1) a new version of a file, the old one is deleted and the new one written in its place. The file handle in existing processes continues to point to the original, and the filesystem will wait until everything's closed it before actually discarding the file data.

Re: Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10

#196

Post by Freaky »

jackmaney wrote: post #110
tomswartz07 wrote: post #26

Perhaps I missed it, but the article doesn't mention this in any way: Windows ABSOLUTELY needs a way to go from 'Fresh Install' to 'Fully upgraded' with minimal interaction. Linux can do this: run `apt-get dist-upgrade` in Ubuntu, and you get all of the most recent updates. However, in Windows, you install 3 updates, restart, install 5 updates, restart, install 110 updates, restart....

Remember the Windows 95 days? Your mouse pointer has moved. Please restart Windows for this change to take effect.

I got "You must restart your computer to apply these changes" in Windows 8.1 just by moving my mouse to another USB port a couple of weeks ago. I guess some other non-critical update was queued up.

Re: Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10

#197

Post by Freaky »

charlesnw wrote: post #127
Goladus wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use cygwin. I run cygwinsshd on localhost:22 and use Putty for my client. A lot of windows-specific gui commands won't work through the ssh layer, but will if you run the cygwin bash shell directly. (Maybe there's some way to get them to work over SSH but I have never had reason to try and figure it out). $ which nmap.exe /cygdrive/c/Program Files/Nmap/nmap.exe $ nmap.exe -PN -p 80,443 news.ycombinator.com | grep t…

Have you ever tried MobaXterm? I use that as my daily driver shell and am very happy with it! Both for ssh to remote boxes and as a local command prompt http://mobaxterm.mobatek.net/

I get rendering problems with my font (BDF UM+ Outline), and find it has broken mouse reporting. e.g. in tmux, vertical splits aren't rendered, and clicks result in spam being written to the shell.

Also couldn't feel more clunky if it tried, impressive as its feature set is.

Re: Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10

#198

Post by WorldWideWayne »

mreiland wrote: post #192
WorldWideWayne wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it normal to update server software like PostgreSQL or Redis on Linux without stopping the running process during the update? Maybe Linux doesn't need to restart the OS as often, but you're still going to have down time, right?

You can update the software without pulling it down. In order to use the update you need to restart, but there's a large difference between restarting a service and restarting an OS. It isn't really analogous.

It takes 10 seconds to restart Windows these days, so it's almost analagous.

Re: Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10

#199

Post by acdha »

WorldWideWayne wrote: post #198
mreiland wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can update the software without pulling it down. In order to use the update you need to restart, but there's a large difference between restarting a service and restarting an OS. It isn't really analogous.

It takes 10 seconds to restart Windows these days, so it's almost analagous.

Do you have any benchmarks to support that claim? I have Windows 8 and 10 systems which take minutes to reboot on an SSD which beg to differ.

Re: Introducing PackageManagement in Windows 10

#200

Post by maratc »

useerup wrote: post #190
maratc wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the one with history going back more than an hour, and tab completions on anything except files in `pwd`.

> No, the one with history going back more than an hour When did you last try PowerShell? In version 1.0 the history size was 64 by default - but could be changed. In PowerShell v3 that's increased to 4096 by default. If you can overflow that in an hour you are a seriously impressive typist! That more than one command line per second - sustained. If you manage to break that, you can assign any value up to 32767 - yes…

> When did you last try PowerShell?

I fired it up just now on Windows 7 that I have available.

> In PowerShell v3 that's increased to 4096 by default.

Once I quit Powershell, all my history's gone. On my unix machine, I can search my command history all the way back to 2011.

This short-term memory won't cut it for my needs.

> Try this on PowerShell "ps "

I tried, and immediately received the first file in my user directory.

"dir /" will erase the / and complete it with some other file name. I was expecting it to list the options.

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