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Tesla Motors Announces a New Home Battery

offgridquest.com

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Re: Tesla Motors Announces a New Home Battery

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I missing something? When you trip the breaker, the power is still on as far as the box in your house - unless it's shut off by the power company, it's just off inside the house. When you have alternative energy sources that include batteries, the same thing applies. The power from your batteries still runs through your box/breaker (via an inverter), and onward into the house. If you shut the box off, the power is…

That you might not be there when you need to go to island mode or that you might not even be aware that the grid is down because you and a bunch of neighbours are capable of sourcing enough power that your 'off grid' detection mechanism fails. There are solutions for this, it costs a little bit of money and depending on local regulations it may or may not be allowed. So yes, you can override this and if you mechanica…

There is no "detection" system. You are the detection system. There is no way of enabling your off-grid connection without shutting off the on-grid system. The interlock switch physically prevents you from switching on the trip for your off-grid system while your on-grid system trip switch is on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbtRxcb-cmA

When the grid goes down, your power goes down. You then have to go trip the switch in your box to shut off the power between the grid and your house. Only then can you switch on the trip for off-grid power bringing the power back up in your house.

I guess you could have some kind of a relay where on-grid power would flow right through, but if on-grid power goes off, the relay redirects the circuit to your off-grid power - I think this is the basic principle behind the automatic transfer switch. Being on vacation or "not detecting a power failure" isn't really an option because as long as there's power, the power would flow into your electrical box from the grid. As soon as the power goes out, the relay that connects the circuit from the grid to your power box would flip to your off-grid circuit. The two circuits aren't connected but your household power can run from either one or the other.

I guess if you're wanting to sell power back to the grid, or supplement your power needs, that's different, but if it's a grid vs. off-grid situation, there isn't a problem.

Re: Tesla Motors Announces a New Home Battery

#192

So, where does lithium come from? It comes from the Earth, of course, but it doesn't require strip mining or blowing the tops off mountains like other resources do...most often, lithium is found in briny underground ponds. The liquid is pumped out and left to dry in the sun. TANSTAAFL https://duckduckgo.com/?q=lithium+pond+photos&iax=1&ia=image... Mining is mining. There isn't a "green" form. Tearing holes in the ear…

Also many municipalities don't allow battery 'grid-tie' with the option of 'off the grid' living. For example, Connecticut has laws which don't allow houses to have batteries that would allow a house to be self sustaining and have a connection to the grid. This is because if you have batteries which cause a back flow during a power outage to the power station, an electrical worker could get shocked down the road. The…

That may be the reason why the law was made, but that situation simply does not exist in reality. Any 'off-grid enabled' battery system that's worth anything at all would isolate the house from the grid when it kicks on, else all manner of bad things could happen, including having your battery drained on somebody else's load or the aforementioned electrical worker zappage. It's also trivially easy to accomplish said isolation.

Re: Tesla Motors Announces a New Home Battery

#194
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

~30kwh is the national average for daily use. 120 is crazy high unless your blasting an AC or heat all day. At 12 cents a kilowatt hour that's a $438 monthly bill. Even 30 is pretty damn high. For someone living off grid with a purpose built/renovated structure ~5kwh a day gives you quite a lot to work with.

True, but you want to be able to handle peak usage too. When 2 kW well pump kicks in, I don't want the lights to dim. AC is 3-5 kW and more to start, and so on. Yeah, if your goal is to live off the grid to save the planet, that's a different story. Then the only question is how much will your Lithium based battery (mining, manufacturing, transport, recycling) affect the planet vs buying wind power from your local ut…

That's the beauty of lead-acid- it has one of the best (if not THE best) surge currents.

For example, the ~70Ah battery in my truck has a cold cranking amps rating of 700A, or 8.4kW out of just one battery.

Re: Tesla Motors Announces a New Home Battery

#195

I'd love to have a self-contained electrical system for my house. I'd preferentially wire my home with a DC grid alongside the AC, but there's no standard. Do I run 120v, 240v, 5v, 12v? Which interface do I use? Barrel connectors, USB, cigarette lighter? If we have a large-scale movement to household DC, we'd have these things hammered out without me rewiring every appliance. If these obstacles were overcome, almost…

There are standards, many of them, just as there are many different standards for AC power worldwide. Your DC system design will be governed by practical technical considerations in concert with economics. The physics of low-voltage systems are such that they are viable only when current is low; otherwise, a 5V or even 12V system will require prohibitively expensive heavy-gauge wire in order to provide the proper voltage at the point of use. So modern DC systems are typically all 48V or even higher now (people are building solar systems with system voltages of 600VDC!). That does not mean you need to run those higher voltages within your home, but from a practical perspective you probably want either 24V or 48V unless your house and/or current needs are very small. To figure this out, you need to consider the following:

- What devices do you need to supply? Often this is the true governing factor although switching regulators are very efficient and inexpensive up to a few amps. - How much current do you need to supply to a particular location (this depends on the power consumption of what you're running)? - What is the distance from the panel to the point of use? The longer the distance, the greater the voltage drop across a wire of a given size (and the higher the cost of larger wire).

As for connectors, there are only a couple of sensible answers. USB is fine for 5V/1A needs, but you're not going to want to run a bunch of 5V wiring separately from the higher-voltage wiring you're going to need anyway. The proper approach here is something like http://www.powerwerx.com/adapter-cables/usbbuddy-powerpole-1..., which will happily work in either a 12V or 24V nominal system. You can of course make other power supplies from all-in-one ICs like http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/RECOM-Power/R-78W90-05/?... and a small project box; larger currents and other voltages are available too, of course. These make good replacements for wall warts.

But you don't want to be wiring any of that in your house; instead, you want to use Anderson Powerpoles in a single-voltage (probably 24V or 48V) system. They are properly rated for DC use at these voltages and plenty of current (up to 350A if you need it, which you won't). They can be installed in blocks of 4 2-blade connectors in standard wall boxes, with neat, professional plates. They can be easily crimped onto appropriate-gauge wire by amateurs. They are code-compatible and safe, unlike the dangerous practice of using receptacles designed for 120VAC or some other existing local/regional standard. They provide a reliable connection and reliable disconnection, and if crimped properly they will not fray, crack, or loosen within a very large number of connect/disconnect cycles. The other low-voltage DC "standard" that is popular, the barrel-type "cigarette lighter" connector, provides only 7A at 12V, is bulky, and does not offer a reliable connection. While it is popular in automotive applications, more serious users of DC power -- the Powerpole is very popular among amateur radio enthusiasts -- avoid the barrel type connectors for these reasons.

The only real decision to make is whether to use 24V or 48V, which will depend primarily on the questions I noted above. Higher voltages are certainly possible, but watch out! Switches rated for higher DC voltages (especially at currents much more than 1 or 2A) are hard to find and expensive. Your standard "AC quiet switch" that you can buy for $2 at the local hardware store is rated for 125V AC ONLY. It is not safe to use with any DC system, although in practice it's probably acceptable for 12V systems at a hundred milliamps or so. For more practical applications, you will need to be sure that your equipment is equipped with proper switches, or no switches at all; you will also need to make sure that any hard-wired DC circuits (such as for lighting) are properly switched. Where you have flexibility in the voltage accepted by your equipment, you will need to trade off the higher cost of switches and other passive components at higher voltages against the higher cost (or voltage drop) associated with wiring at lower voltages. You will quickly learn to read spec sheets and rating stamps carefully when you work with DC.

The last thing I'll mention is that you may not really want to do this. At my location, there are often several months with extremely limited power; even the inverter's 25W base consumption dictates that it be on an hour a day or less if at all possible. For that reason, anything I have that needs smallish amounts of power continuously (such as a freezer, reading lamp, phone charger, etc.) gets DC. But in general, it's simply more convenient to use off-the-shelf devices. I can and do make my own power supplies, but I don't really want to go re-power my laser printer or table saw (which by the way has an AC-only induction motor in it). For higher-power devices, off-the-shelf is the way to go; it's much cheaper and the inverter's overhead is amortized over a lot of consumption anyway. If you have a larger system that can easily supply 100W or more on an indefinite basis, you probably don't need to bother much with DC; it'll be easier to just leave the inverter running all the time. A DC-powered well pump or freezer might be worthwhile, but I wouldn't go converting anything else. Most people are putting in enormous (to me) solar systems now; 10kW is common. With a system that large, you'll probably be fine even if it's overcast. For reference, I have 700 watts, and with endless stretches of 6-hour overcast days in winter, DC is the only way to fly. But your needs are likely to be very different indeed, especially if you have (as we're discussing here) adequate storage. The days of custom-wired 12VDC off-grid living are basically over unless your budget is extremely limited.

Re: Tesla Motors Announces a New Home Battery

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, more like these: http://pics.camarades.com/v/jacques/renewables/batteries/IM0... Sold in bulk. That's a 48KWh bank and it cost about $US 5K

This is roughly 2.5 times cheaper than the marine battery I found first, definitely not orders of magnitude. This is $5k for 2 kW * 24 hours. So 3 of these at $15k total would roughly replace my $700 generator + $10 worth of gasoline for emergency situations. To truly run my house where it would be adequate at 20 kW or 24 hours or so, I'd need 10 of these at $50k. To run my house of for a week (where I live, the last…

I think you're more than a bit power hungry. My house consumed max per day, so even running to 50% discharge that bank would power the house for up to 5 days.

It's much easier to save on consumption than to create capacity, especially stored capacity. You don't really realize just how much energy goes into AC, heating, washing and so on until you've lived off the grid for a bit. And then you'll quickly learn how to conserve energy. I'm currently living in an on-grid house, the old habits die hard, my computers are probably the biggest consumers here.

Anyway, if 22KW is your power budget then don't bother going off-grid without a generator.

Battery powered houses make perfect sense if you're able to conserve power, if you can't then of course it does not make sense.

Re: Tesla Motors Announces a New Home Battery

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And they'll achieve peak shaving in the process. Peak shaving is if you powered your own home off of your battery pack during peak times. The whole issue is that gamers -- who are essentially ruining "the commons" and pissing in the drinking well -- are instead abusing a system. Again, no home battery pack is helping the power company. The rates are hugely subsidized to encourage green energy. The people who abuse it…

You're right of course that it's not peak shaving, which is about shedding load. That was incorrect of me to state. But it is peak generation, which is just as valuable. > Again, no home battery pack is helping the power company. Please re-read my comment where I detail the economics of pulling power off the grid at low price and selling it back at high price is actually net-negative for the individuals doing so. Fro…

It isn't just as valuable. Again, the wholesale market rate is significantly less than the subsidized tariff that they pay homeowners to feed back.

To your final paragraph -- you essentially made up numbers and then demand that I refute them. 10. 14. 1.3e12. Refute that.

The single and only reason this side discussion even happened is that I noted that some power companies will refuse to allow grid feed-in if you install battery packs, for the reason I noted.

Re: Tesla Motors Announces a New Home Battery

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On trip through Minnesota, I watched a helicopter ferry guys up onto the towers to work (they dangled from the helicopter and then transferred over to the tower: http://www.capx2020.com/ ). They were building the type of infrastructure the news says America doesn't know how to build anymore. I wonder if energized lines are the big problem.

Workers can safely work on live high voltage lines, if they're wearing a Faraday cage "hot suit" and not grounded: http://youtu.be/LIjC7DjoVe8

That video is awesome. I've seen a version with much better quality that really gets my acrophobia going... ;-)

Re: Tesla Motors Announces a New Home Battery

#199
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A properly wired transfer switch fully cures that risk.

A couple of my architect friends -- and they are good competent architects who spend the proper portion of their fees to hire competent consulting engineers -- designed an emergency services center a few years ago. The hurricane came - the project was in Florida - the utility cut grid power per protocol and the automatic transfer switch didn't flip to onsite power. Neither did the backup automatic switch. The person…

> The person

And there's the problem.

Re: Tesla Motors Announces a New Home Battery

#200

I have home back-up power based on an inverter charging a lead-acid battery (located in a sheltered area outside the home), which costs about $100/kWh. Usage is about 1-2 hours discharge per day. No matter how well serviced, I've found these batteries don't last beyond four years. Hence I'd pay even $400/kWh for a well-engineered deep-cycle battery that is safe, maintenance-free, and will last at least 10 years. Excl…

Do we have any reason to believe lithium can achieve that? How long are the Tesla batteries supposed to last...?
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