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How One Stupid Tweet Blew Up Justine Sacco’s Life

nytimes.com

191–200 of 596 posts

Re: How One Stupid Tweet Blew Up Justine Sacco’s Life

#191
post #17

I'd like to think that as the world gets more saturated in constant social media and sharing, that we'd have a higher tolerance for things...in this case, a joke that if a person told it to you, with the right tone of voice, it'd be funny...imagine Louis CK making that quip. But no, I doubt it...I think it's more a physical limitation of our brains...we just don't have the brain system designed to adequately consider…

I could be self-deluded, but I feel like to some extent my ability to imagine the missing context, or even just a possible context for these things has increased in the age of social media, and online gaming, and soundbytes. I'm still aware that in many cases there's a high percentage chance a person is just a jerk.

Maybe it's a situation where working on the 8th floor makes most people more likely to take an elevator than if you worked on the 2nd floor, but if you do keep taking the stairs you quickly become very good at it.

Re: How One Stupid Tweet Blew Up Justine Sacco’s Life

#192
Legal liability would put an end to this.

Imagine this: Someone says something unfortunate or offensive at a crowded street corner. Another person hears it and launches into a righteous indignation frenzy. I'll call him the Lead Bully. He stirrs up others. Very soon this turns into a physical attack and the speaker ends up in the hospital with serious injuries.

In this case anyone would easily conclude that the Lead Bully and a number of others should be brought to justice and suffer financial damage for their transgressions.

Well, a lot of these online attacks are not far from my hypothetical scenario. They are launched and stoked by a Lead Bully and stoked by them and perhaps a small group of friends and followers. These attacks result in serious and significant damage spanning from physical and emotional to financial.

According to the article, in Justine Sacco's case the Lead Bully was Sam Biddle, editor of Valleywag. This person single-handedly unleashed the hordes on Sacco. Given his position and following it is impossible to imagine he did not understand the potential consequences of his actions. He ruined this woman's life and quite possibly scarred her for a long time, if not for life.

Much like the street corner beating scenario, he ought to be liable for his decision to affect someone's life. He had at least two choices in front of him. He took the one he knew would stirr-up a hornet's nest.

The case of the guys at the tech conference is similar. Adria Richards decided to be the Lead Bully and, as a consequence, cost a father of three kids his job and caused much pain. I happen to also have three kids. If you are single you have no idea what that man felt at that moment. You can guess, but you can't know. It's horrible.

Did these people say stupid things? Probably. The way to deal with them isn't to ruin their lives. In most cases at a street corner they would be ignored.

When I was younger a mentor said something to me that stuck. He said: Having freedom and being free does not mean having freadom or being free from the responsibility for your actions or what you say.

This cuts both ways. The person who utters or tweets a potentially insensitive remark deserves to be responsible for what they said IN PROPORTION to the nature, degree and context of the statements. The people choosing to eviscerate them using social media ought to also be responsible in proportion to the consequences of their actions. That would be just and fair all around.

Think before you act.

Re: How One Stupid Tweet Blew Up Justine Sacco’s Life

#193
post #22

If I say something stupid to a group of friends, usually they'll tell me it's stupid or I said something wrong, and everyone moves on. If I say something stupid on twitter, it's literally archived forever. Another reason I'm glad I've disconnected from all social media. I'll keep my stupid, non-politically correct jokes in my own head.

set up a twitter account and dont link it to your real name. sign up through a vpn, say waht you want and dont worry about it. unless what you say is actually illegal no one can really track you down without getting your login IP address from twitter. People get tracked down because they link it to their PSN/XBOX/FB account or reuse usernames between twitter and somewhere else they have left personal details.

I have a twitter accout that I set up through TOR and a VPN. I use a username I have never used elsewhere. I dont post anything controversial but I would be pretty happy that I could not be traced without someone obtaining a court order requiring twitter to hand over my IP address, even then it would point to a VPN that (supposedly) does not keep logs.

Re: How One Stupid Tweet Blew Up Justine Sacco’s Life

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN isn't completely made up of MRA types, but if you've been noticing there are a lot of them here (along with your more typical "SJWs out to get us" types). HN is in general no longer held with the same regard it was a couple of years ago. Note the number of progressive, well-respected regulars who've left this place behind. There are other avenues to discuss tech and tech issues without ancaps, MRAs, and anti-SJW c…

> HN isn't completely made up of MRA types, but if you've been noticing there are a lot of them here (along with your more typical "SJWs out to get us" types). This much is true. > HN is in general no longer held with the same regard it was a couple of years ago. This may be true in some circles, but I don't think its generally true. Its probably true that HN is seen by some who participated in it earlier as less of…

> "Such as...?"

Ahah, not about to name names - the trouble with openly naming people who are opposed to MRAs/anti-SJWs is that the demographic is also very, very adept at launching internet lynch mobs.

Sadly the events of the past half-year or so have succeeded in silencing some people who would otherwise speak, for fear of being doxxed, swatted, or otherwise harassed (where harassment goes above and beyond receiving angry messages of disapproval).

If the people who have left HN because of the toxicity want to make themselves known, they should do that. It's not my place to direct the people they want to avoid straight to their doorstep.

A good place to start would be the top posters list and seeing who's still around. Many of these folks still read HN but no longer participate in comments. Many read HN and have their commentary elsewhere. I know some of them, I certainly don't know all of them.

> "you'd probably lose some value for actual tech and, particularly, tech issues discussions."

Yeah, this is where idealism and values run head-first into the brick wall of reality, and no one really knows how to fix it.

We like freedom of speech, we dislike heavy-handed moderation especially when it comes to things that inform our views. At the same time we have real instances of abuse, and we have even more instances where extremists in one camp can simply shout down any dissent (extremists, for some reason, have a lot more time to comment on the internet than the rest of us).

I don't think anyone really knows the right answer to this. We want to preserve intelligent discussion, but at the same time give minority views held in good faith a fair shake. The solution thus far has been for people to abandon communities with toxic demographics, but that hasn't really solved the core problem - it's just hit the reset button until the new community itself attracts the wrong crowd.

Re: How One Stupid Tweet Blew Up Justine Sacco’s Life

#195
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're internet-dogpiling people or taking creepshots and getting people fired for jokes not even directed at you, I will happily internet-fight you for being an awful person. It's amazing how self-described "progressives" can come in here and happily defend this kind of behaviour. I hope you find a nice new website and never have your views challenged again.

I... what? Hold your horses, there's an awful lot of projection here. I haven't come in here to defend internet lynch mobs - there's literally not a word in my post condoning it. The bulk of tech progressive aren't the ones spoiling for a Twitter fight, they're the silent majority that's reading posts on HN, rolling their eyes, maybe sighing a little bit, and moving along with their lives. They're not orchestrating b…

I'm sorry, I was overreaching. Your reply seemed to support the OPs idea that Adria Richards was harassed for no reason by "MRA losers".

>These are the people I'm talking about - the ones who've largely left this place behind because the tone of the community has shifted to one where any talk of race, gender, or even age (or in fact any talk of institutional problems in the industry) is automatically the work of professional victims (and a largely fictional narrative of a "social justice warrior") out to oppress techies.

I won't deny that the MRA side is often reactionary, but you must admit that the "social justice" side is just as bad. The internet of today is designed for reactionism, makes it so easy to react and so easy to find controversial conversations.

This is something I've noticed a lot - both sides are as bad as each other. Both claim to be better people, but both are so mired in faeces that they haven't even noticed they're throwing it themselves. (I've been up for 36 hours that's the best I can come up with).

> (and a largely fictional narrative of a "social justice warrior")

That's a very opinionated statement. Unfortunately, few agree on the definition of SJW, so everyone makes up their own. Pretending that there isn't a clique of 'progressives' in the tech world doing their best to cause trouble is just fantasy. Look at Adria's creepshot/dog whistling, the elevatorgate thing, that time Ben Noordhuis was forced out of the Node community because of a SJW hate mob enraged over a pronoun, or this thing: http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/32778.html. SJWs exist, and have done plenty of damage to the industry.

They've also no doubt scared many young women away from STEM careers through their wild stories about misogyny and dudebro cultures in the tech world. Would you, as (possibly) a woman, want to work in an industry frequently proclaimed to be an unaccepting boys club? Funnily enough, the proclaimers of such always seem to benefit personally from such attacks, landing cushy "developer relations" jobs and hefty sums on patreon. That's where the "professional victim" label comes from.

Re: How One Stupid Tweet Blew Up Justine Sacco’s Life

#196
post #17

I'd like to think that as the world gets more saturated in constant social media and sharing, that we'd have a higher tolerance for things...in this case, a joke that if a person told it to you, with the right tone of voice, it'd be funny...imagine Louis CK making that quip. But no, I doubt it...I think it's more a physical limitation of our brains...we just don't have the brain system designed to adequately consider…

I think it is a mistake to think that most people were actually offended and didn't get the joke. There are definitely much more offensive things out on the internet than the examples in the article.

I think it's much more likely that people revel in seeing someone go down; the article clearly alluded to this sadistic aspect I think. As soon as there is enough critical mass for a public shaming, people will jump on the bandwagon.

What needs to change is that this kind of public shaming on the internet should be looked down upon in the future, just at is now in real life. The first step is for employers not to be so spineless to immediately fire an employee that is talked about.

Re: How One Stupid Tweet Blew Up Justine Sacco’s Life

#197
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're internet-dogpiling people or taking creepshots and getting people fired for jokes not even directed at you, I will happily internet-fight you for being an awful person. It's amazing how self-described "progressives" can come in here and happily defend this kind of behaviour. I hope you find a nice new website and never have your views challenged again.

I... what? Hold your horses, there's an awful lot of projection here. I haven't come in here to defend internet lynch mobs - there's literally not a word in my post condoning it. The bulk of tech progressive aren't the ones spoiling for a Twitter fight, they're the silent majority that's reading posts on HN, rolling their eyes, maybe sighing a little bit, and moving along with their lives. They're not orchestrating b…

That's weird, I'm the opposite--I read HN specifically for the comments.

It's not true for articles like this, which I generally don't read. But when the link is a programming article expressing an opinion on _______, I definitely want to read what HN has to say.

Re: How One Stupid Tweet Blew Up Justine Sacco’s Life

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really understanding how the wikipedia community operates, why were you irritated by the signature and how was writing the comments such an irreconcilable wrong? Were they inappropriate comments?

The comments weren't awful. It was really a bad judgement call because it violated the principle "don't be disruptive to make a point", which I really didn't consider very clearly before doing it. The reason I was annoyed about it was because signatures are the way you see who is saying something in a conversation thread. Back then you'd click on the person's username and get easy access to their pages, talk page, bl…

Are 'admins' on wikipedia more like 'moderators' than actual admins? The word admin to me makes me think of someone who runs something and makes the rules, not always being held to them themselves.

Re: How One Stupid Tweet Blew Up Justine Sacco’s Life

#199
post #26

Two things: Don't be too clever. People trip over themselves to feel offended. Two, you really don't have freedom of speech when you can get mugged by being obnoxious online. Not being malicious -just obnoxious. Yes all the tweets quoted in the article were obnoxious and leveraged stereotypes but I don't think people should be flogged for being like that. I remember all the obnoxious Polish jokes growing up. They wer…

> A robust society can take the jokes.

Let me rephrase that:

> A robust society requires everyone in the minority to shut the fuck up when anyone in the majority makes them feel invisible

> An irony is that many of the people calling offense don't realize their own transgression in becoming part of a self-righteous mob meting out punishment at the speed of thought.

There's a difference between pointing out someone acting obnoxiously and couch-fainting.

Re: How One Stupid Tweet Blew Up Justine Sacco’s Life

#200
post #26

Two things: Don't be too clever. People trip over themselves to feel offended. Two, you really don't have freedom of speech when you can get mugged by being obnoxious online. Not being malicious -just obnoxious. Yes all the tweets quoted in the article were obnoxious and leveraged stereotypes but I don't think people should be flogged for being like that. I remember all the obnoxious Polish jokes growing up. They wer…

> you really don't have freedom of speech when you can get mugged by being obnoxious online If you published something similarly obnoxious in a newspaper before the Internet, I'm sure you'd get a similarly angry response from some people, and quite possibly have someone harass you in person if they knew where to find you. If you stood on top of a soap box and shouted offensive crap at the public, you might have stuff…

One of the cited cases was a person whispering to a friend during a conference, and a stranger who listened in felt offended.

Not only is it easier to publish things, it is also easier to attack people. The only thing needed to begin a shaming, is a large list of followers and the ability to tell a narrative.

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