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U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

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Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#191

Post by Normati »

john61 wrote: post #149
tomphoolery wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much like the Constitution you mentioned, I feel we need some sort of document that explains the intentions behind surveillance and the limitations by which it can be legally used. We have no problem upholding the bill of rights, so why would it be hard to create a set of guidelines for future regulation of surveillance? Making it open is not a complete solution (though it's still a good idea), because we're still no…

The purpose of an insurance is to share the risk of individuals with a great number of people. To pinpoint the risk to a single person is against this purpose. They can get away with this because you have to have a insurance by law. Therefore this practice should be forbidden by law.

No, the solution would be to get insurance against high insurance costs. This already happens with medical insurance. If you're already sick your insurance costs more. But if you get insurance in advance, before you know you'll be sick, it's cheaper. The same could happen with driving. Get insurance before you've driven, before you know you'll be risky.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#192

Post by radiorental »

JonCox wrote: post #190
stegosaurus wrote: post #6

Same deal in the UK with the national ANPR system (Automatic Number Plate Recognition). Ostensibly to reduce the amount of uninsured/untaxed drivers on the roads. Don't want to sit around in databases? Well, here's a nice list of just a few of the things you can't have: Bank account; Car/motorcycle; Mobile telephone; Internet-connected computer; Credit/debit card; Visible face (oh, we might be safe there, for a few y…

I sometimes feel the Hacker News crowd are a bit out of touch with the rest of the population. Here in the UK most people I know feel safer with surveillance, it's used primarily to keep law and order. We don't live in some authoritarian state where it's used for nefarious means, it's used to keep the public safe. And seriously, why would you care if you're sitting on a database? What difference does it make to anyth…

"it's used primarily to keep law and order."

Except when it's not. No one disagrees the advantages afforded to us with access to data. However with great power comes great responsibility and our leaders, including the institutional powers behind them, invariably show a lack of the latter.

"Honestly, no-one cares."

That is patently untrue. People who understand the disadvantages and pitfalls of unfettered access to data care very much and fight for our rights even if we are too busy to make it a priority in our lives. The EFF have made it their job to care for example.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#193

Post by josephlord »

JonCox wrote: post #190
stegosaurus wrote: post #6

Same deal in the UK with the national ANPR system (Automatic Number Plate Recognition). Ostensibly to reduce the amount of uninsured/untaxed drivers on the roads. Don't want to sit around in databases? Well, here's a nice list of just a few of the things you can't have: Bank account; Car/motorcycle; Mobile telephone; Internet-connected computer; Credit/debit card; Visible face (oh, we might be safe there, for a few y…

I sometimes feel the Hacker News crowd are a bit out of touch with the rest of the population. Here in the UK most people I know feel safer with surveillance, it's used primarily to keep law and order. We don't live in some authoritarian state where it's used for nefarious means, it's used to keep the public safe. And seriously, why would you care if you're sitting on a database? What difference does it make to anyth…

It doesn't make a difference until someone trawls the databases and can reconstruct much of your life. Also even if it doesn't matter to you don't you want journalists and lawyers free from communication (and who they contact) surveilance?

I'm actually fine with a CCTV operator in a monitoring station viewing the feeds. I'm also OK with the recordings being kept a short time in case they are needed to investigate something not spotted at the time. What I'm not comfortable with is them being kept more than a month or so. CCTV footage kept long term may be linked with Face recognition for detailed and personal tracking.

Likewise with the ANPR, I would be OK with it kept and accessible for a month or so (although I think a judge should approve searches both on a particular event (time and location) and for searches on a particular number plate.

We may not yet live in a authoritarian state but can you rule out one occuring in the next 50 years? What if legal and reasonable things today are outlawed, gay rights roled back and they search the ANPR for people who may have frequented gay bars or the archived communications data for anyone who used Grindr.

In my view the collected knowledge is more dangerous than the terrorists to a free society and oversight and limits on retention are required.

You are right though that the majority of the public do not feel this way yet. That doesn't mean we shouldn't oppose the surveilance where not fully justified and try to educate them.

I would also note precisely what you said "people I know feel safer with surveilance" and while I think you may be right I'm really not sure how much safer they actually are.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#194

Post by josephlord »

superuser2 wrote: post #142
wahsd wrote: post #103

Can we please stop acting like the USA is somehow a "good guy" anymore? We have to realize that the authoritarian demons have the battering ram at the door and I really don't want to find out what happens when the USA turns into an authoritarian militaristic regime. We're way more than half way there already and people support it. Our very own government is a threat to us all, or at least those who will find themselv…

Do you read the news? Because here are some things that other states are up to that we aren't (at least, not in this decade): - Systematic execution for the crime of belonging to a particular ethnic group or religion - Open and openly arbitrary disappearing, detention, and torture of intellectuals for the crime of writing articles critical of state-sponsored religious and political doctrine - Use of force against peo…

Others are worse. I don't think anybody would deny that. But that in itself does not make it a good state.

But when did the US and UK start comparing themselves to the most oppressive rather than the freest in the world?

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#195

Post by Normati »

superuser2 wrote: post #142
wahsd wrote: post #103

Can we please stop acting like the USA is somehow a "good guy" anymore? We have to realize that the authoritarian demons have the battering ram at the door and I really don't want to find out what happens when the USA turns into an authoritarian militaristic regime. We're way more than half way there already and people support it. Our very own government is a threat to us all, or at least those who will find themselv…

Do you read the news? Because here are some things that other states are up to that we aren't (at least, not in this decade): - Systematic execution for the crime of belonging to a particular ethnic group or religion - Open and openly arbitrary disappearing, detention, and torture of intellectuals for the crime of writing articles critical of state-sponsored religious and political doctrine - Use of force against peo…

> Use of force against people who commit such crimes as selecting their own sexual partners, being seen in public with members of the opposite sex, texting members of the opposite sex, being homosexual, etc.

This happens but you tolerate it because it's consistent with your arbitrary local culture. Consider pedophilia (having "wrong" sexual feelings) which comes with chemical castration and an attempt to "cure" it along with imprisonment of course. You don't even have to abuse anyone to suffer some of these consequences. Sound familiar? Have you ever met any self-confessed pedophile who hadn't been arrested for a related crime? Until they're outed, they're forced to keep their feelings secret from everyone because it's a kind of western thought crime. This leads us to imagine that all pedophiles rape children. They don't any more than 60 years ago all homosexuals raped children.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#196

Post by JonCox »

josephlord wrote: post #193
JonCox wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sometimes feel the Hacker News crowd are a bit out of touch with the rest of the population. Here in the UK most people I know feel safer with surveillance, it's used primarily to keep law and order. We don't live in some authoritarian state where it's used for nefarious means, it's used to keep the public safe. And seriously, why would you care if you're sitting on a database? What difference does it make to anyth…

It doesn't make a difference until someone trawls the databases and can reconstruct much of your life. Also even if it doesn't matter to you don't you want journalists and lawyers free from communication (and who they contact) surveilance? I'm actually fine with a CCTV operator in a monitoring station viewing the feeds. I'm also OK with the recordings being kept a short time in case they are needed to investigate som…

I guess it really comes down to who can 'reconstruct' my life. If it's the police or security services I believe that's absolutely fine, whoever you are (journalists, lawyers etc. included)

The UK government don't misuse surveillance for political reasons, if they did there would be uproar. We're not slipping into an authoritarian state, that would be completely at odds with British culture and where we're really heading.

I'm just tired of seeing a trend of people who post here all spouting the same anti-surveilance, privacy is everything, ideals. Without adding any caveats for the benefits and protection we gain from people watching over us. It feels like there is total disregard here for what we would lose by giving it up.

I'm okay with giving up a little privacy for the greater good.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#197

Post by JonCox »

radiorental wrote: post #192
JonCox wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sometimes feel the Hacker News crowd are a bit out of touch with the rest of the population. Here in the UK most people I know feel safer with surveillance, it's used primarily to keep law and order. We don't live in some authoritarian state where it's used for nefarious means, it's used to keep the public safe. And seriously, why would you care if you're sitting on a database? What difference does it make to anyth…

"it's used primarily to keep law and order." Except when it's not. No one disagrees the advantages afforded to us with access to data. However with great power comes great responsibility and our leaders, including the institutional powers behind them, invariably show a lack of the latter. "Honestly, no-one cares." That is patently untrue. People who understand the disadvantages and pitfalls of unfettered access to da…

> "Except when it's not. No one disagrees the advantages afforded to us with access to data. However with great power comes great responsibility and our leaders, including the institutional powers behind them, invariably show a lack of the latter."

It would be political suicide for a UK politician to use the data the police and security forces have for political gain (assuming they got caught of course). It just doesn't happen.

> "That is patently untrue. People who understand the disadvantages and pitfalls of unfettered access to data care very much and fight for our rights even if we are too busy to make it a priority in our lives. The EFF have made it their job to care for example."

It's nice there are people out there making sure things don't get too out of hand. I just question their underlying beliefs about our need for privacy.

Also the "no-one cares" goes both ways. I seriously doubt the state cares about my conversations with friends, most people just aren't that interesting. Perhaps Hacker News suffers from collective delusions of grandeur ;)

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#198

Post by realusername »

JonCox wrote: post #190
stegosaurus wrote: post #6

Same deal in the UK with the national ANPR system (Automatic Number Plate Recognition). Ostensibly to reduce the amount of uninsured/untaxed drivers on the roads. Don't want to sit around in databases? Well, here's a nice list of just a few of the things you can't have: Bank account; Car/motorcycle; Mobile telephone; Internet-connected computer; Credit/debit card; Visible face (oh, we might be safe there, for a few y…

I sometimes feel the Hacker News crowd are a bit out of touch with the rest of the population. Here in the UK most people I know feel safer with surveillance, it's used primarily to keep law and order. We don't live in some authoritarian state where it's used for nefarious means, it's used to keep the public safe. And seriously, why would you care if you're sitting on a database? What difference does it make to anyth…

I does not matter until you are a journalist investigating on some issues with the country, it happened multiple times.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#199

Post by throwawayaway »

stegosaurus wrote: post #6

Same deal in the UK with the national ANPR system (Automatic Number Plate Recognition). Ostensibly to reduce the amount of uninsured/untaxed drivers on the roads. Don't want to sit around in databases? Well, here's a nice list of just a few of the things you can't have: Bank account; Car/motorcycle; Mobile telephone; Internet-connected computer; Credit/debit card; Visible face (oh, we might be safe there, for a few y…

I think making access to records of you, paper, video etc could be made a legal right. If somebody is filming in an area, they are required to provide you access to the footage. If somebody has accounts of yours, same deal.

If someone is logging your access to a something, they are required to provide you with the logs on request.

I think Europe at least would go for it. In Japan telephone cameras are required to make a clicking sound. This is an extension of the concept.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#200

Post by crusso »

orbifold wrote: post #180
woodman wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no way to reverse this. Trying to cage this with paperwork will just lead to more of the same creative interpretations à la NSA. So the rulers don't feel the rules apply to them, big surprise. With that in mind, the futility of fighting the tide, what is the next step? As the ideal solution of reversal is unavailable, we need to go with harm reduction - but what is the harm that we would reduce? Most would s…

This kind of defeatism is not helpful. Through history people were able to eventually overthrow much more brutal oppressors. The kind coercion used in western societies might appear to be more effective, but there is no reason to think that direct political action could not work. When it happens, like in the case of the occupy movement, you can see by the media reaction, how uncomfortable it is for the powerful. Your…

Name one thing accomplished by the occupy movement. If anything, they were a distraction from the worst culprits of the unholy corporate-government alliance.
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