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On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

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Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#191

Post by wyclif »

unimportant wrote: post #83
sheetjs wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> anyone who cries foul about a shortage of workers Those people generally use the phrase to mean "a shortage of workers willing to accept below-market wages and invest all of their time and energy in a company while bearing the downside risk of a entrepreneur but none of the upside."

I can't stress this enough. In Germany all kinds of industries have been whining about shortages for ages, but in reality they're all looking for unicorns that work for peanuts in combination with an absolute unwillingness to train anyone (let someone else or big gov foot the bill, if that doesn't work cry for immigration reforms).

In the US, it's popular for Valley companies to complain that they can't hire for what they're willing to pay, but at the same time they are totally unwilling to train—if you're a developer who wants to advance and improve your skillset, well, that is going to be up to you on your nights and weekends. Funny how that works.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#192

Post by cbsmith »

pm24601 wrote: post #161
cbsmith wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a very reasonable case to be made that H1-B's in particular actually push domestic salaries up at the expense of foreign salaries.

No there isn't. H1-B workers can't leave their current employer easily. (green card applications go to back of the line, must get a new job fast if they are laid-off, etc.) H1-B employees are not mobile thus their salaries lack other workers.

> No there isn't. H1-B workers can't leave their current employer easily. (green card applications go to back of the line, must get a new job fast if they are laid-off, etc.)

Actually, that glitch has been fixed. I was witness to a counter example.

> H1-B employees are not mobile thus their salaries lack other workers.

Yes, but having H1-B employees may nonetheless open up opportunity for higher paying wages for domestic workers. There isn't strictly a zero sum game here, as cheaper skilled labour and more importantly a greater skilled labour supply can make business models viable that otherwise aren't.

What is certain though is that every H1-B programmer is a programmer that otherwise would have otherwise been working in another country, and almost certainly at much lower wages. Odds favour that they'll get a job as a programmer.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#193

Post by beachstartup »

morgante wrote: post #94
beachstartup wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

we're a startup and we've sent multiple people to offsite training. in general it only costs a couple thousand bucks per class per employee including room and board.

Interesting. Were they otherwise experienced developers who you just needed to train in your particular toolchain, or have you hired inexperienced developers and trained them to be more experienced?

both, although the second type you mention just happens on the job, there isn't really a "get better at everything" class, that's just called work experience.

training classes for specific software is either free (depending on the type of business relationship between the two companies) or $500-$5k with a big cluster around $1500. anything outside of that range is really rare. hotel/flight/car is usually about $1k+ combined in the US. classe usually last a day or two.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#194

Post by pm24601 »

cbsmith wrote: post #192
pm24601 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No there isn't. H1-B workers can't leave their current employer easily. (green card applications go to back of the line, must get a new job fast if they are laid-off, etc.) H1-B employees are not mobile thus their salaries lack other workers.

> No there isn't. H1-B workers can't leave their current employer easily. (green card applications go to back of the line, must get a new job fast if they are laid-off, etc.) Actually, that glitch has been fixed. I was witness to a counter example. > H1-B employees are not mobile thus their salaries lack other workers. Yes, but having H1-B employees may nonetheless open up opportunity for higher paying wages for dome…

> Yes, but having H1-B employees may nonetheless open up opportunity for higher paying wages for domestic workers. There isn't strictly a zero sum game here, as cheaper skilled labour and more importantly a greater skilled labour supply can make business models viable that otherwise aren't.

Sure there are benefits for EMPLOYERS. However, you aren't making a very good case for EMPLOYEES.

NAFTA and all the other "free" trade agreements since NAFTA always promised these wonderful benefits to Americans.

And those benefits were delivered... provide the American in question was worth $10+ million. But there are entire cities in the Midwest that saw major, devastating declines over the last 20 years as a result.

Everything sold to the American public about immigration and the benefits of opening up borders has talked about how wonderful the next new agreement will be for American businesses. Well it turns out the only "American" businesses that benefited are those listed on the NYSE/NASDAQ. Mom/pop businesses have been driven out of business as more and more of their customers have sunk from middle class to lower class.

> What is certain though is that every H1-B programmer is a programmer that otherwise would have otherwise been working in another country, and almost certainly at much lower wages. Odds favour that they'll get a job as a programmer.

Great. That's fine.

Now mind you, I do know the history of immigration in the U.S. And it used to be in general a benefit to more than just the business owner. But the last 25 years have been characterized as a coordinated effort by the 1% to drive everyone else into poverty by making Americans fearful of their jobs being sent overseas, union busting, tax giveaways, and Wall Street financial shenanigans.

"Immigration reform" as proposed by Paul Graham is just more of the same. It is clearly just to benefit him and people like him - there is no benefit to anyone else.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#195

Post by cbsmith »

pm24601 wrote: post #194
cbsmith wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No there isn't. H1-B workers can't leave their current employer easily. (green card applications go to back of the line, must get a new job fast if they are laid-off, etc.) Actually, that glitch has been fixed. I was witness to a counter example. > H1-B employees are not mobile thus their salaries lack other workers. Yes, but having H1-B employees may nonetheless open up opportunity for higher paying wages for dome…

> Yes, but having H1-B employees may nonetheless open up opportunity for higher paying wages for domestic workers. There isn't strictly a zero sum game here, as cheaper skilled labour and more importantly a greater skilled labour supply can make business models viable that otherwise aren't. Sure there are benefits for EMPLOYERS. However, you aren't making a very good case for EMPLOYEES. NAFTA and all the other "free"…

> Sure there are benefits for EMPLOYERS. However, you aren't making a very good case for EMPLOYEES.

Yeah, you're looking at this too narrowly. A new opportunity that otherwise didn't exist, that just might have a few high wage jobs in it. Even if the average salary goes down, the total number of opportunities goes up.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#196

Post by cbsmith »

pm24601 wrote: post #194
cbsmith wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No there isn't. H1-B workers can't leave their current employer easily. (green card applications go to back of the line, must get a new job fast if they are laid-off, etc.) Actually, that glitch has been fixed. I was witness to a counter example. > H1-B employees are not mobile thus their salaries lack other workers. Yes, but having H1-B employees may nonetheless open up opportunity for higher paying wages for dome…

> Yes, but having H1-B employees may nonetheless open up opportunity for higher paying wages for domestic workers. There isn't strictly a zero sum game here, as cheaper skilled labour and more importantly a greater skilled labour supply can make business models viable that otherwise aren't. Sure there are benefits for EMPLOYERS. However, you aren't making a very good case for EMPLOYEES. NAFTA and all the other "free"…

> Now mind you, I do know the history of immigration in the U.S. And it used to be in general a benefit to more than just the business owner. But the last 25 years have been characterized as a coordinated effort by the 1% to drive everyone else into poverty by making Americans fearful of their jobs being sent overseas, union busting, tax giveaways, and Wall Street financial shenanigans.

Perhaps a reflection of something other than evil businesses behind this. Might be a reflection of absurd global wealth inequality that is slowly getting chipped away.

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