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What an Uncensored Letter to M.L.K. Reveals

nytimes.com

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Re: What an Uncensored Letter to M.L.K. Reveals

#191

Post by mkl »

refurb wrote: post #174
crdoconnor wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Show me a list of democratic countries and I have no doubt I could dig up some really evil stuff on every single one of them. If I were to pick some (e.g. Switzerland/New Zealand), what you'd dig up on the US would still be far, far, far, far worse. There's really no morally relativistic comparison between Switzerland's aiding and abetting money laundering and the US starting two wars in the last 15 years or Obama's…

If I were to pick some (e.g. Switzerland/New Zealand) Let me give it a go! Switzerland basically bankrolled the Nazi war machine. Without Switzerland, Germany would have been unable to stash away all of the treasures it stole and likely wouldn't have been able to carry out the Holocaust with the efficiency it did.[1] Pretty bad huh? New Zealand has a dismal record on aboriginal rights. The Maori make up 4% of the pop…

> New Zealand has a dismal record on aboriginal rights. The Maori make up 4% of the population, but 50% of the prison population. Check out Amnesty International if you want to read up on other stuff. Some have labelled it genocide.

Some of this is right, some isn't. I (a New Zealander of European ancestry) agree with your general point, however.

Maori are 14.9% of the population. Yes, they make up 51% of people in prison. Yes, this is bad, and there are significant ongoing social inequalities disproportionately affecting Maori.

"Genocide" has been used, but it doesn't seem to fit reality especially well (no organised extermination). Do you have a link to the Amnesty International info?

Historically, there have been both good and bad things regarding rights, e.g. Maori men had universal suffrage before non-Maori men, but the Treaty of Waitangi, signed in 1840, was violated and ignored extensively (we've been trying to undo that damage for the last few decades). The Waitangi Tribunal, which hears grievances between Maori and the crown, has settled claims totalling nearly 1 billion NZD.

Re: What an Uncensored Letter to M.L.K. Reveals

#192

Post by hueving »

comrade1 wrote: post #142
internet_arguer wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll bite. From one troll account to another. It's interesting when someone from Switzerland claims the moral high ground about a country's past wrongs. Switzerland has a colorful history of Nazi collaboration and laundering of stolen treasure by the 3rd Reich. Is that an unfair characterization of you as a modern Swiss person? Yes. Just like comparing 1960s America to the present day. The U.S. may not live up to the…

I'm not Swiss, I'm American. The Swiss provided a service to the Jews in Germany and helped hide their money from the nazis. Unfortunately most of their customers were killed... If I lived in a country with a corrupt or evil government I would try to move my money to Switzerland too, but the u.s. Is making it increasingly difficult to conduct finance anonymously. Based on your other comments... I'm not sure if you're…

>that desperate life.

That sounds like a reflection of you and not the bay area.

Re: What an Uncensored Letter to M.L.K. Reveals

#193

Post by hueving »

m_mueller wrote: post #183
refurb wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I were to pick some (e.g. Switzerland/New Zealand) Let me give it a go! Switzerland basically bankrolled the Nazi war machine. Without Switzerland, Germany would have been unable to stash away all of the treasures it stole and likely wouldn't have been able to carry out the Holocaust with the efficiency it did.[1] Pretty bad huh? New Zealand has a dismal record on aboriginal rights. The Maori make up 4% of the pop…

About [1]: IMO [2] is a much better source for what went wrong in WW2 in Switzerland. Lots of work has gone into this, and it isn't biased for the Swiss side at all, even though the Swiss government has sponsored it. IMO the gold trade was defendable, given the geopolitical situation for Switzerland during the height of the the Third Reich - it was completely surrounded. What's most despicable about that time is how…

A study about the government funded by the government. Are you seriously suggesting it's free from bias?

Also, you're justifications of their previous actions based on forming a fund are missing the point. It's the fact that they participated in the first place that's the problem.

Re: What an Uncensored Letter to M.L.K. Reveals

#194

Post by hueving »

refurb wrote: post #178
snowwrestler wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think you're shocking anyone with your accusations, you're kidding yourself. Paranoia is the default mindset of the American people. BTW, it's a mindset that is often mocked by Europeans when it comes to subjects like health care, vacation, taxes, guns, etc. But the reasons for it seem obvious now, don't they? The idea that the U.K., German, or Swiss governments are less authoritarian than the U.S. is laughabl…

The idea that the U.K., German, or Swiss governments are less authoritarian than the U.S. is laughable to U.S. citizens. Considering that the UK will throw people in jail for expressing their right to freedom of speech is a slight counter to your argument.

Uh, the UK incarcerating people for speaking helps his argument...

Re: What an Uncensored Letter to M.L.K. Reveals

#195

Post by jcslzr »

comrade1 wrote: post #142
internet_arguer wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll bite. From one troll account to another. It's interesting when someone from Switzerland claims the moral high ground about a country's past wrongs. Switzerland has a colorful history of Nazi collaboration and laundering of stolen treasure by the 3rd Reich. Is that an unfair characterization of you as a modern Swiss person? Yes. Just like comparing 1960s America to the present day. The U.S. may not live up to the…

I'm not Swiss, I'm American. The Swiss provided a service to the Jews in Germany and helped hide their money from the nazis. Unfortunately most of their customers were killed... If I lived in a country with a corrupt or evil government I would try to move my money to Switzerland too, but the u.s. Is making it increasingly difficult to conduct finance anonymously. Based on your other comments... I'm not sure if you're…

you are brave and honest, most people agree with you, but are afraid to put it on writing, thank you.

Re: What an Uncensored Letter to M.L.K. Reveals

#196

Post by opendais »

spopejoy wrote: post #164
opendais wrote: post #5

Tbh, this is what scares me about tech illiterate juries. Many of these cases hang on key pieces of evidence that are literally the FBI's word against the defendants.

Why would a tech-savvy jury be more inclined to discount testimony or non-technical evidence from the prosecution? It seems that the word of law enforcement has an advantage in the courtroom regardless of someone's literacy in any field. In any case, I think a bigger problem isn't juries, but the huge amount of cases that never see a jury, via absurd overcharges leading to plea bargains. Only a judge is involved, and…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Aleynikov would be an example of what I mean. :P

Re: What an Uncensored Letter to M.L.K. Reveals

#197

Post by opendais »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #150
opendais wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does that happen in every case for every piece of technical evidence?

I think it has to. The only way it could not is if you had a piece of physical evidence, and you were going to extract the technical evidence from it there in the courtroom in front of the jury. But even then, you have to worry about the chain of custody of the physical evidence, and about the tool you're going to use to extract the technical evidence in the courtroom...

Perhaps it does but I'm not convinced without evidence it happens and I can't find any that shows it happens the majority of the time let alone all the time :/

Re: What an Uncensored Letter to M.L.K. Reveals

#198

Post by opendais »

smm2000 wrote: post #99
comrade1 wrote: post #52

This was in the 1960s. Imagine the projects being conceived now for targeting individuals and population subsets to change opinion, mood, etc. using things like social media, targeted communications, etc. The US then and now was totalitarian and authoritarian. Some of you, especially here on hn, may not fall into those mind-sets but it doesn't matter - you've lost - you're barely scraping by, working 60 to 80 hours a…

Chill out and pick different audience. Most people on HN are not just "scraping by" unless making >$100k first year after college is now called scraping by. I would say overall HN audience benefits much more from current political, economic and financial situation than suffer from it. It's probably not true for reddit so you can find more receptive audience there.

I don't think most people on HN are making over $100k unless they are in the Bay Area or NYC.

Many, many places that "starting salary" is more like $50-60k.

Re: What an Uncensored Letter to M.L.K. Reveals

#199

Post by andrewflnr »

njharman wrote: post #91
rglover wrote: post #56

Something that's always confused me about the world and people as a whole. Why are so many people hell bent on implementing some "moral standard" that everyone needs to follow? Honestly? There's this bizarre projection of the individual and his/her motivations onto every living being that fails to make any logical sense. Is there any psychological premise for why we feel the need to dictate the behavior of others suc…

> fails to make any logical sense By and large humans are not logical, our actions are not logical/rational at least on individual basis. They are rational from a evolutionary species domination POV. We are herd animals. Enforcing "moral standards" is outcome of Herd dynamics. e.g. way to maintain control / "leader of the herd" status and to distinguish other herdmembers.

Less cynically, moral cohesion is important for social cohesion, which is critical for survival. So from that perspective it makes perfect sense. It's just carried too far most of the time.

Re: What an Uncensored Letter to M.L.K. Reveals

#200

Post by GhotiFish »

rglover wrote: post #143
GhotiFish wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this an inditement of Dr. King, the FBI, Or the EFF? Are you inditing all three of them? I'm pretty sure all three parties have put their words to action, and are fully willing to follow their moral beliefs in addition to foisting those beliefs on others.

No one in particular, this article just brought the thought to mind.

Ok that's fair. A little unrelated, but fair.
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