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On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

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Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#191
post #48

While there's a lot to debate in the article, kudos to Graeber for talking about a taboo. White-collar employees 'work' (periods of focused concentration) a lot less than 40 hours. There are exceptions, and HNers may deny this fact (because the demographic is different or because the taboo is more powerful in this circle), but Graeber's inebriated cocktail party confessions match my own discussions with friends. Howe…

I am not going to deny anything you said, its almost 100% true. But I believe your missing an important "fact"(maybe). That is its not really physically/physiologically/mentally possible to put in 40 hours of true "work". Not consistently anyways. So as much as it is we not truly putting in 40 hours, its the entire effort to be available for 40 hours IMO that you are getting paid for.

Exactly - I've come to peace with it that I'm being paid to be available for my 37 hours a week. As others have touched on, "knowledge economy" jobs aren't all-out work, so whilst my brain is foggy (especially after lunch) and I'm not accomplishing much, it's easy to think, for me, I'd be better screwing off outta here and doing something else.

However, for a lot of it I'm asked for help or input where my brain's called into action for a few minutes a time every now and again by other staff. We know this isn't productive for us, but if it provides value to the organisation as a whole (usually by solving something relatively minor, which is best expressed IRL than through the screen), then that's what they need of me.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but there are plenty of bad side effects like the invasion of privacy, cluttering up urban spaces, breaking up TV shows, et cetera. I will add another set that is often missed in discussion - electricity, fuel and man-hours. We are heading for a crisis in supply of the former two in part because of wasting a big part of them on those bullshit zero-sum jobs.

There's plenty of fuel around. We will have some upset as we switch sources, but believe it that business will switch to whatever keeps them going at a good price, when push comes to shove. I'm not sure that people going to jobs is very big deal energy-wise. Isn't smelting steel our largest electricity consumption? Industry uses buttloads of energy; dwarfs what you and I use to heat our houses and run our cars by ord…

Bullshit jobs don't exist in a vacuum, they are consumers of goods and services produced by other industries. For instance, I'd wager that most of the print industry serves advertising. All those magazines, leaflets and billboards use horrible amounts of paper, paint, metal and electricity (and all of this is ephemeral, often thrown away without even delivering its message). And of course you need to design it, manage it, transport it, etc.

I think there would be much less need for products from more useful industries if we could cut down on some pointless zero-sum things we're doing. I don't have any numbers in front of me though. It would be interesting to see how much % of resources we actually waste like that.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#193

This reads like a classic Graeber piece, in that he's starts off by tackling some fascinating questions -- why are there 2x the administrative workers in the US as in Europe -- but then skips straight to the anarchist polemics. Most of the jobs he categorizes as "bullshit" all share an element of arms-race components to them. i.e. if my competitor has really good telemarketers/lobbyists/corporate lawyers, I'd better…

What always surprises me about articles like this, and the discussions they produce, is how so many engineers and builders-of-things discard the evidence of their years of experience and see the world through the eyes of people who've never built a complex system.

For instance, a couple of years ago I inherited a convoluted, needlessly ornate and grotesque application that could clearly be rewritten and even extended in one-fifth the LOC it currently occupied. When I finally got greenlit to perform the surgery the usual thing happened, which is that I realized, after much painful effort, that the system had become grotesque little by little, in much the same way that good people turn bad: by taking steps that seem appropriate at the time to what the situation demands. My solution, in the end, was somewhat less grotesque than the original, and certainly more capable, and yet it was not the glittering jewel that I had imagined beforehand, and the path to it was littered with bodies. I assume many people on this site have had a similar experience.

So with regard to repugnant systems (giant commerical banks) and jobs (middle management) or jobs and systems that are repugnant due to the types and numbers of people who seem to be filling them (lawyers, politicians) and wrt established habits and customs and traditions -- to all of it I now perceive that these jobs and systems are the survivors of a mighty selection pressure, and the whole creaky affair so vastly outperformed the alternatives that it has taken over the world to the extent that now it seems as if nothing else is possible.

Something else is possible, of course; but the costs of these theoretically more benign and humane alternatives are impossible to envision. And I'm positive that the whole thing could not be redone, elegantly, in one-fifth the code.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#194
From my POV, working 40 hours a week instead of 15 is a conscious choice. I could probably start my own company or source of income and get away with working 15 hours or even less a week, but I'm not going to.

One, working for a boss is secure - I know what I'm gonna earn by the end of the month, no stress there.

Two... I honestly wouldn't know what to do with the remaining time. I'm not an artsy hipster that spends all that free time being creative, I'd probably spend the extra time playing video games and growing fat. I for one need the structure in my life.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#195
Bullshit jobs are central to how our economy works, and their history goes way back. Most "work projects," unless they are to build infrastructure, are bullshit jobs. I'm convinced that a significant proportion of the military activity in the world is one big exercise in very pompous and important-seeming bullshit jobs in the defense sector. Whole sectors of the economy are bullshit.

The more I see, especially since 2008, the more I think Keynes was really onto something re: monetary velocity. Our biggest problem is excessive pessimism and a zero-sum mentality, manifesting as various paradoxes of thrift. Without monumental efforts at hand-waving to keep the money flowing, our tendency is to deflate all the way back to the dark ages.

Bullshit jobs are a semi-conscious hack to keep this from happening-- to keep people "working" so they get paid so the money flows.

The other crazy hack around this problem is inflation, and fiat currency in general.

The Austrian types who preach how all this nonsense is a result of these things are precisely wrong. Don't blame the hack for the thing it's fixing.

If we can find a more permanent solution to the problems that we're hacking around, maybe we can dispense with the bullshit. Maybe that's a guaranteed minimum income.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#196
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of the physical jobs also require a lot of critical thought. There is a reason why accident rates go up significanly the more hours people are forced to work. The difference is not that office jobs require more critical thought, but that physical jobs tend to produce actual value, and tend to produce value that is more easily measured.

It is ultimately very satisfying to see your complete roof, new shingles neatly laid across 5000 square feet. Or your plowed field ready for the planter, 80 acres of potential fertility. Even a half-acre neatly mowed. I don't know if it beats a library debugged and turning over 50,000 calls per second, but at least you can look at the other ones, see the whole expanse of what you accomplished laid out under the sun.

This is why started to build web projects on the side. I have one these white collar jobs and I don't get to create things. I work closely with construction workers and get to see how satisfying it is for them to build something real.

Now I come home form 8 hours of work and spend 4 hours building things. Pretty bizarre.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#197
post #44

> The answer clearly isn’t economic I beg to differ. I totally agree with the paradox (with the advances in technology, humans should be working less) but the problem, today, is economic: - In order to live you need money - In order to obtain money you need to work (except for the lucky too few) - Therefore, work needs to exist to provide people with money, to the point of creating "useless" jobs if needs be How are…

My SO has recently been on a kick about basic income, and I admit I have been skeptical. Could you elaborate on the pros/cons of basic income as you understand it please?

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#198
what a bunch ob crap, only large super corporations can keep "bullshit" jobs. Otherwise the market corrects this.

Funny to see all the hn readers advocating for more welfare and central planning. Typical neckbeard communism.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#199
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whenever I walk through a Home Depot, I think "Man, the people that use this stuff are really MAKING things." Inevitably, my next thought is, "And a place like Home Depot could never operate without software making it work behind the scenes."

Home Depot existed long before software. It'll exist long after software, too. Remember that we live in a bubble.

Purely for the sake of pedantry, Home Depot is actually under 40 years old, so it didn't even exist before software, yet alone after.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#200
post #199
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Home Depot existed long before software. It'll exist long after software, too. Remember that we live in a bubble.

Purely for the sake of pedantry, Home Depot is actually under 40 years old, so it didn't even exist before software, yet alone after.

Not a lot of businesses had more than a mechanical calculator in 1975
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