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What I use instead of Google services

gabrielweinberg.com

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Re: What I use instead of Google services

#191

Post by brave-new »

astrocat wrote: post #75

> "Like most people, I don't like to be tracked. I also am the founder of the search engine that doesn't track you, DuckDuckGo." It pains me to hear intelligent people talk about being "tracked" as something "bad" a priori. While there are certainly plenty of examples of abuse of knowledge, I tend to think of most "tracking" not as "stalking" but as "relationship building." Let me explain... Google is a service provi…

We live in the information age and information now is the ultimate power. Many people don't believe it, the same way that before the Civil and Crimean Wars not everybody believed that industry is the ultimate power of the industrial age.

By letting Google collect enormous amounts of data about you, you are letting them have power over you. It can be used for pushing you to buy stuff against your rational will or for killing you, if say at any point you decide to not fully cooperate with a future totalitarian government.

Re: What I use instead of Google services

#192

Post by eevilspock »

astrocat wrote: post #75

> "Like most people, I don't like to be tracked. I also am the founder of the search engine that doesn't track you, DuckDuckGo." It pains me to hear intelligent people talk about being "tracked" as something "bad" a priori. While there are certainly plenty of examples of abuse of knowledge, I tend to think of most "tracking" not as "stalking" but as "relationship building." Let me explain... Google is a service provi…

> The REAL issue is accountability. True information lockdown rarely benefits anyone, but openness without accountability is useless and downright dangerous.

Google is accountable. The problem is that they are accountable to advertisers, currently to the tune of about $55 billion per year.

For consumers to hold Google accountable, they have to fight against their addiction to free web content and services, and start directly paying for what they consume. It's important to note that "Google is free!" is an outright lie, and in fact we are paying more for Google through advertising than if we just paid straight up[1].

> We should instead be spending our breath advocating for greater accountability in the system as a whole.

The best way to do that is to advocate against ad-supported websites and services, and to advocate (and invent if missing) honest ways to get necessary revenue[2].

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[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7485773

[2] I avoid the term "monetization" which to me is a word invented to make it easier to be dishonest.

[EDIT] Sigh. As usual, either Google or advertising apologists are downvoting without supplying a reason. Upton Sinclair said, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Too many people here have a salary dependent on advertising, or an identity dependent on Google fanboyism.

Re: What I use instead of Google services

#193

Post by imgabe »

seanflyon wrote: post #187
imgabe wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The things you've mentioned are all generally Bad Things and things that we should be fighting to stop. Fighting to obscure your location information and even protect your privacy in general doesn't stop any of the things you mentioned if you believe the government is acting in bad faith.

It mitigates the risk. Someone cannot do bad things with your location information if they do not have your location information.

I think it is naive to think that a bad actor who intends you harm will be stopped or even slowed down by the fact that there isn't a log of every location you've visited.

Re: What I use instead of Google services

#194

Post by snogglethorpe »

pavlov wrote: post #17
napoleond wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm sure that Apple adding DDG to Safari is the reason for this thinly veiled reciprocity. It seems unlikely that anyone other than Gabe could be sure of his intentions. At any rate, I assume he also uses Apple Maps for directions... if you know of any good non-Google/Apple competitors for that I would be very interested to hear about them.

Here by Nokia (the independent company, not the division sold to Microsoft): http://here.com Excellent maps and navigation in my experience.

For a good laugh, look at Tokyo on here.com:

http://here.com/35.7115098,139.7902388,13,0,0,normal.day

The largest city in the world apparently has about five streets (and note that even the extremely tiny amount that gets shown is actually wrong)! >Here maps certainly has its fans, but it's clear they have a long way to go before they're a real alternative to Google maps...

Re: What I use instead of Google services

#195

Post by makosdv »

joeclark77 wrote: post #174
jastanton wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually it's more like going to your Dr appt and realizing they have a barista onsite... of course you're not going to tell the barista why you're going to the Dr, and the barista isn't going to know your full medical history, there is a pretty large separation of concerns there. Same applies to big companies. There are really big barriers up between services like there are between the Dr and the on site barista. To…

That may be true of doctors with coffee bars, but it is absolutely NOT true of Google. Google is an advertising company, period. All of the thousand things they do are for one purpose: to sell advertising based on getting better and better at knowing the customer and targeting ads you're likely to click on. Even if Google does say that some app is firewalled, the implied follow up is "...until customers stop caring"…

Exactly. I was surprised by Youtube yesterday when it recommended some videos related to some Google searches I had just made... Creeped me out a bit.

Re: What I use instead of Google services

#196

Post by ewoodrich »

joeclark77 wrote: post #174
jastanton wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually it's more like going to your Dr appt and realizing they have a barista onsite... of course you're not going to tell the barista why you're going to the Dr, and the barista isn't going to know your full medical history, there is a pretty large separation of concerns there. Same applies to big companies. There are really big barriers up between services like there are between the Dr and the on site barista. To…

That may be true of doctors with coffee bars, but it is absolutely NOT true of Google. Google is an advertising company, period. All of the thousand things they do are for one purpose: to sell advertising based on getting better and better at knowing the customer and targeting ads you're likely to click on. Even if Google does say that some app is firewalled, the implied follow up is "...until customers stop caring"…

This goes both ways -- the sheer amount of personal data that is entrusted to Google requires that they maintain a basic level of trust with their users.

If they were to flip a switch and turn Gmail-mined data into a dating site, or something, users would leave en masse. And good luck trying to entice new users with an expectation that their information would be misused.

Re: What I use instead of Google services

#197

Post by throwawayaway »

spindritf wrote: post #10

OK, there's some value in diversifying instead of using one provider for everything but mostly he just swapped Apple, Fastmail, or Clicky in place of Google. They can still track him, read his email, know his calendar... The benefit here is marginal. And how do those companies stack up against Google when it comes to security? It's one thing to protect the data against snooping by the provider, it's anoter to protect…

Does Clicky let site viewers also view the traffic? I don't mind such information as much so long as everyone knows that they can see it when they want.

Re: What I use instead of Google services

#198

Post by jpadkins »

siculars wrote: post #156
astrocat wrote: post #75

> "Like most people, I don't like to be tracked. I also am the founder of the search engine that doesn't track you, DuckDuckGo." It pains me to hear intelligent people talk about being "tracked" as something "bad" a priori. While there are certainly plenty of examples of abuse of knowledge, I tend to think of most "tracking" not as "stalking" but as "relationship building." Let me explain... Google is a service provi…

The problem is that Google attaches your real identity to your activities.

not anymore. And you have full visibility/control of what google 'remembers' about your account.

Re: What I use instead of Google services

#199

Post by jusben1369 »

brave-new wrote: post #191
astrocat wrote: post #75

> "Like most people, I don't like to be tracked. I also am the founder of the search engine that doesn't track you, DuckDuckGo." It pains me to hear intelligent people talk about being "tracked" as something "bad" a priori. While there are certainly plenty of examples of abuse of knowledge, I tend to think of most "tracking" not as "stalking" but as "relationship building." Let me explain... Google is a service provi…

We live in the information age and information now is the ultimate power. Many people don't believe it, the same way that before the Civil and Crimean Wars not everybody believed that industry is the ultimate power of the industrial age. By letting Google collect enormous amounts of data about you, you are letting them have power over you. It can be used for pushing you to buy stuff against your rational will or for…

One can't live ones live today driven by an assumption that they'll be ruled by a totalitarian government in the future. Your mind is already trapped; you're effectively living in fear today that one day in the future you'll be living in fear.

Re: What I use instead of Google services

#200

Post by eevilspock »

boling11 wrote: post #122
astrocat wrote: post #75

> "Like most people, I don't like to be tracked. I also am the founder of the search engine that doesn't track you, DuckDuckGo." It pains me to hear intelligent people talk about being "tracked" as something "bad" a priori. While there are certainly plenty of examples of abuse of knowledge, I tend to think of most "tracking" not as "stalking" but as "relationship building." Let me explain... Google is a service provi…

Advocating for greater accountability across the board sounds great in principle, but what does that even mean? Are we to hold Google, accountable for monetizing the data they collect on us? That's the social contract you engage in with Google, when you use their services. Looking at the underlying business model is more effective. I am confident that DDG is going to respect my privacy, because that's what their whol…

[EDIT] Both my comments critiquing advertising are getting downvoted, as usual with no reply explaining where I'm wrong. Sigh.

One way to advocate for greater accountability across the board is to advocate against the "free through advertising" business model:

1. It's a lie. It's not free. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7485773

2. It undermines free-market mechanisms by having the paying customer be other than the consumer. And as fidotron points out, it also has the same effects as dumping against any non-advertising business model.

What is the underlying business model of Apple? Make products that consumers are willing to pay for. DDG's underlying business model seems to rely on sales kick-backs and minimal advertising[1]. Not perfect, but not as bad as Google's.

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[1] https://www.quora.com/What-is-DuckDuckGos-business-model

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