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Responding to the Explosion of Student Interest in Computer Science [pdf]

lazowska.cs.washington.edu

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Re: Responding to the Explosion of Student Interest in Computer Science [pdf]

#191

Post by jimmaswell »

hga wrote: post #187
unclebucknasty wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a feeling someone would key on that "unbundle" phrase! Two year schools and a few online courses aren't yet respected with regard to training in certain fields. In such fields (including software dev, for the most part), employers are generally looking for a bachelor's and, frequently, one in a related field. So, it's not just the university name, but the actual degree. > the issue is that people want contradic…

" There was once a time when a person could obtain a bachelor's degree--in virtually any field--and be employable. " As you make a nod to later, there was also once a time when a student could work their way through a university or college degree (and that includes not piling up significant debt). This was once true of MIT, let alone public schools. That is now only a nostalgic memory, and with a rate of inflation th…

The student can still do that at a community college. You just have to take advantage of federal and state aid and the debt won't be that bad.

Re: Responding to the Explosion of Student Interest in Computer Science [pdf]

#192

Post by kimdouglasmason »

webmaven wrote: post #140
TheEzEzz wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an alluring retort, but I have to agree with kimdouglasmason that it has no actual weight. kimdouglasmason explains and gives examples of why literacy has had such a huge impact on the world. You give no examples of how code literacy will have similar impacts. You just make an analogy and say it will affect the world "in ways we can't imagine". Your argument could just as easily apply to electrical engineerin…

The electrical equivalent of everyone knowing the basics of computation isn't 'understanding maxwells equations' it is being able to wire up a battery and a light bulb.

Many people who have successfully understood Maxwell's equations but were unable to grasp coding would beg to differ.

Over and over again on this board I see people underestimating how demonstrably difficult the concepts are for many people. As my evidence, I again cite the dropout rate of CS1 classes.

Re: Responding to the Explosion of Student Interest in Computer Science [pdf]

#193

Post by omarhegazy »

cenhyperion wrote: post #175
agotterer wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Move to NYC or SF. Engineers fresh out of college are getting $90k. Startups are paying $100k - $150k to engineers with 5+ years experience. I don't know if you can call that "ridiculous amounts of money", but its definitely better than average. It's worth noting that engineering salaries rise a lot quicker then traditional non engineering salaries, but the also plateau much earlier. The engineers making $150k with 8…

> Move to NYC or SF Factor in cost of living and you're really not making much more.

Yes, but factor in all the activity and opportunities and life of the city, and it's worth moving there. Besides, it's not really higher cost if the wage of the industry you're working in scales nicely with the cost of living (true for programming).

I live in Manhattan. Within some 2-digit amount of minutes, I can experience the Tribeca Film Festival, I can visit some of the best museums and galleries in the world, I can get involved in the thriving nightlife, dozens of top restaurants, hundreds of huge retailers, and a massive tech scene. Whether we're talking conferences or weekly meetups or user groups or opportunities like Hacker School, there's just a higher chance it's going on in NYC than in a smaller city. Obviously when it comes specifically to the tech scene SF+SV+Bay Area is the juggernaut, but comparing NYC and SF to some small town is comparing some top college football player to some NFL players to your local middle school's quarterback. Yes, if I lived in the Midwest, I could get a McMansion and slightly larger numbers in the bank account if my industry's salary doesn't scale well between city sizes (again, programming does), but is it really worth it to give up all the other opportunities and stuff in bigger cities?

Re: Responding to the Explosion of Student Interest in Computer Science [pdf]

#194

Post by RogerL »

jqm wrote: post #24

One of the most interesting (and to me) significant points about this is the amount of non-CS majors taking CS classes. My father, in his 70's, has run several large corporations over his career. We discussed this and he sees no need for "managers to learn to program". His view is that they can just hire computer people. I disagree. My experience is that if you don't know the basics of programming it's hard to know w…

I see this all the time. We have plenty of people that work with computers, but don't program them. Their inability to write a 5 line script, or even realize they could walk into a dev's office, explain what they want done, and have it in their email inbox before they can walk back to their desk has them poking away in File Manager, dragging and droppings "opps, didn't mean to do that, where did that go", just wasting their lives away. Well, 'waste' is an exaggeration, but you know what I mean. They are doing something mundane, tedious, and utterly unnecessary, and they always express surprise and gratitude when I offer to knock off a script for them.

Re: Responding to the Explosion of Student Interest in Computer Science [pdf]

#195

Post by fanf2 »

nlawalker wrote: post #69

The problem is that 'computational thinking' has become expected of a university education, regardless of major , but universities haven't shifted to meet the need. All the other basic requirements of a university education are filled through entry level classes - credit-fillers that students have to take in order to graduate. This structure works out well for everyone: the university ensures that students are gettin…

An example of a university that is doing what you suggest is Princeton: see Brian Kernighan's course "computers in our world" and the accompanying book D is for Digital. http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~bwk/

Re: Responding to the Explosion of Student Interest in Computer Science [pdf]

#196

Post by claystu »

TheEzEzz wrote: post #76
wanderingstan wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone a thousand years ago would have dictated to his scribe the following: "Having everyone knowing how to read and write is the opposite of specialisation. It's inefficient and pointless. If a certain profession needs a document, it's much more efficient for specialist scribes to consult with domain experts, write that document, and sell it into the industry. Having every (for example) doctor being able to read a…

This is an alluring retort, but I have to agree with kimdouglasmason that it has no actual weight. kimdouglasmason explains and gives examples of why literacy has had such a huge impact on the world. You give no examples of how code literacy will have similar impacts. You just make an analogy and say it will affect the world "in ways we can't imagine". Your argument could just as easily apply to electrical engineerin…

Perhaps we shouldn't teach anything at all? Let's just cancel school. Does teaching everyone a foreign language have a huge impact on the world? How about English? Or history? Or Art? Or PE?

How many high school students change the world by studying the periodic table or learning trigonometry?

By your criteria, how can we justify teaching any subject?

Re: Responding to the Explosion of Student Interest in Computer Science [pdf]

#197

Post by ryanpardieck »

scotty79 wrote: post #89
pakitan wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There was a time when 'writing' was a specialist activity best left to professionals. Imagine if that never changed? Writing = thoughts put on paper. When writing was a "specialist" activity it was due mostly to technical difficulties rather than people needing a whole new breed of skills. The anatomist analogy is a good one. But if we extend it to IT, it doesn't mean everybody should be able to program. Rather, ev…

Programming = putting thoughts into computers in executable form. I think all people should learn how to make computer do their bidding at a rate more than one click at a time.

More importantly, writing is an important mode of communication in a way programming will never be (and programming shouldn't be expected to be that).

Penpals don't mail source code back and forth to each other.

Thinking knowing to code is as important as literacy is just another version of people thinking their specific profession is super-important because it's what they spend their time doing. I imagine some especially pompous auto mechanics think knowing the internals of a car is as important as reading and writing. (Though, I imagine there are much fewer pompous auto mechanics than pompous hackers.)

Re: Responding to the Explosion of Student Interest in Computer Science [pdf]

#198

Post by ryanpardieck »

kimdouglasmason wrote: post #192
webmaven wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The electrical equivalent of everyone knowing the basics of computation isn't 'understanding maxwells equations' it is being able to wire up a battery and a light bulb.

Many people who have successfully understood Maxwell's equations but were unable to grasp coding would beg to differ. Over and over again on this board I see people underestimating how demonstrably difficult the concepts are for many people. As my evidence, I again cite the dropout rate of CS1 classes.

I think people also underestimate just how soul-crushingly dull coding might be for many people. It's easy to assume that everyone will enjoy what you enjoy, but for some people this stuff is just extremely difficult, extremely boring, or both.

Re: Responding to the Explosion of Student Interest in Computer Science [pdf]

#199

Post by ryanpardieck »

claystu wrote: post #196
TheEzEzz wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an alluring retort, but I have to agree with kimdouglasmason that it has no actual weight. kimdouglasmason explains and gives examples of why literacy has had such a huge impact on the world. You give no examples of how code literacy will have similar impacts. You just make an analogy and say it will affect the world "in ways we can't imagine". Your argument could just as easily apply to electrical engineerin…

Perhaps we shouldn't teach anything at all? Let's just cancel school. Does teaching everyone a foreign language have a huge impact on the world? How about English? Or history? Or Art? Or PE? How many high school students change the world by studying the periodic table or learning trigonometry? By your criteria, how can we justify teaching any subject?

I think there's a very strong case to be made for programming as a prominent elective. But the context of this sub-thread is the claim that knowing programming is akin to basic literacy, which is a much, much stronger claim.

Re: Responding to the Explosion of Student Interest in Computer Science [pdf]

#200

Post by ryanpardieck »

codesuela wrote: post #78
randomdata wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention that $50K is the median household income. Individuals earn even less, on average.

this is a perfect illustration of why people protest the Google Shuttles in SF

I thought the further-up comment--where the poster apparently didn't realize that many would see 90K as quite a lot of money--was a better example of this.
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