It Is Time For Basic Income • Hacker News Board

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#191

Post by saraid216 » Sat, Mar 22, 2014, 1:30 AM UTC

kalvin wrote: post #164

I think if you could see close-up how these systems work now, you'd be convinced that it's completely not worth the cost in practice to try and figure out who "deserves" each of the many, many special benefits/allowances/exemptions available (plus it's incredibly difficult for potential recipients to figure out what they're eligible for, plus it imposes those costs on the people who aren't eligible, but end up having…

> So since this is HN... is there any way to get to an MVP without having a sovereign state to experiment with? Or is this solely in the realm of public policy?

Scale it down? Seems pretty obvious to me. If you can make it happen in one city, you have a foothold.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#192

Post by rjtavares » Sat, Mar 22, 2014, 1:31 AM UTC

ahomescu1 wrote: post #187

buzaga41 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you are not, but society is an organism with more than you in it, and if he's thrown into the bin because he's can't make it in it the guy may think it's fair to take it from you... in the same vein, your job only exist because there's people with enough buying power to keep the business you're at existing, so again you depend on people, and you could be punished or rewarded depending on how society as a entire organ…

> you are not, but society is an organism with more than you in it, and if he's thrown into the bin because he's can't make it in it the guy may think it's fair to take it from you... I already had a similar discussion on Slashdot recently. Taking other people's money by force is, IMHO, theft. My question then isn't why it would be OK for the guy, but why does theft become OK for society? Why are you arguing that ste…

People like you scare me. I can't even understand that point of view, and I don't think we can have a productive argument if we don't share a basic understanding of what a society is. Saying that taxes are theft is as absurd to me as saying that private property is imoral.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#193

Post by IgorPartola » Sat, Mar 22, 2014, 1:31 AM UTC

alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #160

IgorPartola wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about Medicare/Medicaid? Those are pretty much essential at this point and the $10k will not even begin to cover insurance premiums for the elderly. Also don't forget that a huge number of the people work for the federal government and the budget you are citing includes their salaries. For a large percentage of the population, your proposal would mean poverty. Simple math like this does not work on a system as c…

1. Firing government workers in droves does not in fact lead to poverty. Example: Release of hundreds of thousands of conscript soldiers after WWII. Many economists predicted catastrophe. This did not happen. 2. Elderly health care: You legalize private cheap insurance for the elderly. The poor elderly can use that. The non-poor elderly can get fancier coverage should they so choose.

Is cheap private insurance illegal now? Is that why my premiums are so outrageous?

Insurance is not like a car: there are no luxury and budget brands. Either you can afford premiums + costs not covered or you cannot. Not going to the doctor is not an option: the physiology of a poor person is the same as that of a rich person. The treatment therefore is the same. Thus what you are proposing is basically legalizing leaving the poor behind. That was in fact how things used to work up until roughly 35-40 years ago. We then decided that it was a bad idea because the quality of care for those who had the "budget" care was so terrible that we would all be willing to pay more and not risk ending up in their shoes.

Look, I don't disagree with everything you are saying. We need to reign in spending, streamline the government, reduce the size of the military, fund more social programs and education. I do disagree with the tiered approach. Healthcare is a basic human necessity. Lots of first world governments provide it and do it better and cheap than the "free market" in the US. One day people will realize this and we will have sane care for sane prices. Until then we need the hybrid approach like the Affordable Care Act, Medicare/Medicaid, and private insurance.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#194

Post by angersock » Sat, Mar 22, 2014, 1:33 AM UTC

Meekro wrote: post #107

People becoming "unemployable" because of robots is one of the most common arguments in favor of this, and that argument is nonsense because actual skilled jobs are not going away. Will a robot fix your car when it breaks? Will it be designing new and better cars? Will it even design the automation systems that let those new cars be built more efficiently? Will those robots provide legal advice to the companies that…

"Will they prosecute people who hurt others, or preside over those trials to make sure everyone's rights are protected?"

We don't even do that now, with people. Might as well try robots.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#195

Post by RoboTeddy » Sat, Mar 22, 2014, 1:33 AM UTC

kalvin wrote: post #164

I think if you could see close-up how these systems work now, you'd be convinced that it's completely not worth the cost in practice to try and figure out who "deserves" each of the many, many special benefits/allowances/exemptions available (plus it's incredibly difficult for potential recipients to figure out what they're eligible for, plus it imposes those costs on the people who aren't eligible, but end up having…

> ...is there any way to get to an MVP without having a sovereign state to experiment with? Or is this solely in the realm of public policy?

I don't know, but technology like http://ethereum.org may make it possible to move some things from the realm of states into software. For example, given data feeds of births/deaths/retirements, it might be possible to implement a software contract for voluntary social security that pays contributing participants an annuity from retirement until death.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#196

Post by saraid216 » Sat, Mar 22, 2014, 1:34 AM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #188

FD3SA wrote: post #180

Basic income is the first step to an empirically ethical society, which accounts for inherent human limitations and behaviors. Evolution is an extremely feckless game, and thus far we've been trapped by its whims, endlessly struggling in a free-for-all battle for survival. In order to transcend and escape our evolutionary origins, we will first and foremost need to understand ourselves. How we came to be, what behavi…

> Basic income is the first step to an empirically ethical society Not sure, but wouldn't basic income induce increased prices for commodities? If disposable income increases for everyone, then there is an incentive to increase prices everywhere (including accommodation which is a significant part of monthly expenses), thus negating the positive effects of basic income. Then you know what would happen next... people…

Whether or not that's true, that doesn't actually respond to the part you're quoting.

Unless you're arguing that an empirically ethical society is not possible?

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#197

Post by jgj » Sat, Mar 22, 2014, 1:34 AM UTC

jiggy2011 wrote: post #175

kalvin wrote: post #164

I think if you could see close-up how these systems work now, you'd be convinced that it's completely not worth the cost in practice to try and figure out who "deserves" each of the many, many special benefits/allowances/exemptions available (plus it's incredibly difficult for potential recipients to figure out what they're eligible for, plus it imposes those costs on the people who aren't eligible, but end up having…

I'm not convinced that Basic income would necessarily deal with edge cases all that much better. A simple basic income implies that you provide everybody with the same minimum income and they cut back on public services etc to the minimum since in theory people can now buy what they want. But there are problems in that not everyone can live off the same amount of money. This is especially true with disabled or very i…

In the mystical future world where a GBI has been implemented charity still exists, and much of the capital once dedicated to assisting those in poverty-absent-illness can now be directed to those who need help in addition to the GBI.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#198

Post by gizmo686 » Sat, Mar 22, 2014, 1:35 AM UTC

dicroce wrote: post #69

Here's the thing: I believe that millions of years of evolution have baked into every living thing a deep need to work, and we'll feel bad if we don't (because for millions of years lazyness meant death). We need to struggle. Further, I think we need to bad times to help us recognize the good times and a basic income would do much to soften those bad times... I worry that Basic Income is in the long term practically…

From an evolutionary standpoint, I disagree with your first statement. Work involves using energy. When an animal does not need food, it is often better served by not working so as to conserve its energy.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#199

Post by bcheung » Sat, Mar 22, 2014, 1:35 AM UTC

api wrote: post #53

benched wrote: post #22

The idea that you absolutely must work hard in exchange for the necessities of your life, is so deeply ingrained in our collective consciousness, like a fundamental law of conservation, that it seems a lot of people cannot conceive otherwise.

I think the real fallacy beneath the surface is that if we do something like this people will just totally stop working. A few will, but most will use their newfound flexibility to shift what they work on: explore other career options, create art and culture, etc. Overall there will likely be a lot more entrepreneurship, invention, science, art, literature, and music. It's tied into the far right's religious-based do…

You have heard of communism, right?

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#200

Post by yourapostasy » Sat, Mar 22, 2014, 1:36 AM UTC

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #189

I have a proposal. Those who favor basic income should pick one or two recipients who are deserving of assistance, and open their own pockets and provide the money. The recipients will be glad and thankful, the donors will feel they have moved society toward utopia, and the rest of us can just get on with our lives without suffering the burdens that an additional entitlement would impose. I say this not to incite a f…

That would only seem workable if the donors could offset the amount of donation from their tax liabilities. Also, most BI discussions I've seen are about how to replace the existing benefits delivery infrastructure with BI, and not as an additional entitlement.