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The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

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Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. My coworker's kid goes to kindergarten where on of the teachers is male. This guy really had a hard time at the beginning. Parents were very suspicious and worried (why "man" is working in kindergarden???) or took him for a repairman. The article's author is simply a victim of statistics. If at the conference there is 150 "booth babies" and 300 male engineers, but in one booth there is a female engineer, people…

> I think nobody is to blame here An industry who employs women as booth babes , apparently because staring at a booth babe sells tech better? Stinks.

So, all industries then.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#192
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Find a field that has been woman-dominated for the last 50 years. Now put a man in that field, who is rather successful (like yourself in technology), and you will get the exact same result in the contexts you describe. I'm sick of this paradox where men and women are equal and yet men (and only men) are capable of making this mistake. It's simple pattern matching, and when the pattern tells you one thing and it's ac…

The problem is not men hitting on us and it being awkward. I can handle that, whatever. The issue is being seen as ONLY sexual objects. Normally things start out great. Oh, you're a girl in tech? That's so awesome. Now I can talk tech, a topic I'm comfortable with. However, I can't tell you how many times I've mentioned my fiance and the conversation comes to a screeching halt, see ya. Or I let it go on without menti…

> If I was a guy, they'd be happy to talk business and learn about my startup.

That's unlikely. If you were a guy they wouldn't be talking to you at all. Even less likely they'd do so with genuine interest. That is the experience most males have in such conferences. Few men get any kind of attention from anyone without putting in a lot of effort.

Having men lose interest in you after your fiancée is mentioned doesn't tell you anything about the likelihood of them seeing you only as a sexual object. Could just as well be a human object they want to love.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#193
post #84
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Find a field that has been woman-dominated for the last 50 years. Now put a man in that field, who is rather successful (like yourself in technology), and you will get the exact same result in the contexts you describe. I'm sick of this paradox where men and women are equal and yet men (and only men) are capable of making this mistake. It's simple pattern matching, and when the pattern tells you one thing and it's ac…

Sorry, I hate to be this person, but do you know who the high-paid, "celebrity" hair stylists are? Men. If you look at all the communications careers-- teachers, psychologists, marketers. Men make the most money and have the most prestige in female-dominated professions. "Flipping" a scenario is rarely the best way of formulating an argument.

Meanwhile:

* 93% of prisoners are male: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._incarceration_rates_1...

* 92% of all occupational deaths are male: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_fatality

* 84% of homeless people are male: http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/may/07/men-gen...

The general statistical consensus is actually that men have higher variance in general. You're more likely as a man to be rich and famous, but you're also more likely to end up in a ditch.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#194
This is not unique to operations in tech startups. It also happens with "IT" employees in insurance companies and banks. It is what happens to people whose roles are considered peripheral by the core parts of the business. It is natural and to some extend it is valid, within limits. I'm not saying that overt disrespect and dehumanizing behavior is valid, however let's not be naive. Not all roles are as important to the business as others and if respect for your role is a primary motivator for you, I would suggest finding a business where your role is central to the core product.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#195
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is not men hitting on us and it being awkward. I can handle that, whatever. The issue is being seen as ONLY sexual objects. Normally things start out great. Oh, you're a girl in tech? That's so awesome. Now I can talk tech, a topic I'm comfortable with. However, I can't tell you how many times I've mentioned my fiance and the conversation comes to a screeching halt, see ya. Or I let it go on without menti…

> If I was a guy, they'd be happy to talk business and learn about my startup. That's unlikely. If you were a guy they wouldn't be talking to you at all. Even less likely they'd do so with genuine interest. That is the experience most males have in such conferences. Few men get any kind of attention from anyone without putting in a lot of effort. Having men lose interest in you after your fiancée is mentioned doesn't…

Take object out of your last sentence and I maybe can accept your point better..

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#196
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a sly redefinition of racism that largely fails to withstand scrutiny: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Prejudice_plus_power

From that link: "It is important to push for the understanding that racism is 'prejudice plus power' and therefore people of color cannot be racist against whites in the United States. People of color can be prejudiced against whites but clearly do not have the power as a group to enforce that prejudice." That's pretty much exactly the case! Thanks for the great quote.

So Barack Obama couldn't be racist against a school janitor because the school janitor has more power?

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#197
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Harassment includes offensive verbal comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race, religion, sexual images in public spaces, deliberate intimidation, stalking, following, harassing photography or recording, sustained disruption of talks or other events, inappropriate physical contact, and unwelcome sexual attention." That's extremely open ended, based on perception…

> That's extremely open ended, based on perception rather than objectivity, and how we got donglegate. You realize that the PyCon organizers talked to the attendee in question to let him know that some of his comments had cause offense and left it at that, right? It was the internet hate machine (on both sides), his employer, and her employer, who took any actions. You can't really blame the policy for what happened;…

> Um, we're talking about first world tech industry stuff, among a first world tech industry audience, about topics that are more likely to be sensitive for such an audience as they involve rape and death threats against members of the first world tech industry.

So do you adjust your trigger warnings for all contexts and all people? Stay up-to-date so you can avoid the "trigger" du jour?

Or do you accept that nannying people in all contexts and all subjects is beyond any reasonable ken, and people are responsible for their own welfare?

> I have no idea what you're talking about. What are you saying is being "codified as a cultural ideal"? What are you saying isn't?

Rape and death threats are not being codified into conference codes of conduct, are not considered to be, by any rational observer, acceptable behavior, and -- let's be perfectly honest -- are not actually strong threats. Public figures receive hateful correspondence, often from unbalanced or broken people, and especially regarding more controversial topics.

That occurrence is not representative of the population at large, nor is it representative of the industry, and occurring outside the bounds of the industry and without any acceptance as part of our culture, it's certainly not relevant to the conversation other than as a footnote on the broader lack of cultural civility.

On the other hand, when members of the industry, with their name attached, with a large following, who participate in conferences by setting or helping form codes of conduct, women-only conference services, and otherwise inhabit a privileged industry position that gives them the opportunity for discrimination, use sexist, racist, and exclusionary words, terms, and language, then I'd say it's being codified in industry culture.

> On the internet, you can never know who will be listening, so it's polite to provide at least a warning so those people who may be affected can skip over it or prepare themselves if necessary.

That's ridiculous. You can never know what will be a "trigger", either, and you're myopically focused on a narrow and selfish definition.

> Exactly what makes you feel unsafe? That I'm trying to show a certain amount of respect for other people? Or that you're being asked by the code of conduct to act in a polite and professional manner? I'm not really sure how that's supposed to make you feel unsafe.

That perceived offensive is now more important than objective truth, and alone is enough to cause one to be pulled aside at a conference, lose your job, or libel a company or person publicly.

That's more than enough to be made to feel unsafe and unwelcome, and "trigger" warnings only serve to reinforce the appearance of Orwellian groupthink, with-us-or-against-us, that your position embodies.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#198
I think the author has mistaken what her role in the company is. If you want to answer technical questions than become a tech employee. The same way you don't want a random tech employee trying to handle the complicated operations pieces, you should let the tech employee's answer the tech questions.

I co-founded an engineering startup that works on high-heat machinery. I have degrees in mathematics and information analysis, I fully understand the technical aspect as I contributed to a lot of the work, yet I refuse to answer tech questions. I serve in an operations role right now and don't spend my entire day developing the technology; thus I am not the best qualified to answer any tech questions.

You are right that tech companies can only afford to hire the smartest, but that doesn't mean you have to be a jack-of-all-trades - that applies to co-founders. Do the job you were hired to do and do it better then any one else can.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. My coworker's kid goes to kindergarten where on of the teachers is male. This guy really had a hard time at the beginning. Parents were very suspicious and worried (why "man" is working in kindergarden???) or took him for a repairman. The article's author is simply a victim of statistics. If at the conference there is 150 "booth babies" and 300 male engineers, but in one booth there is a female engineer, people…

> I think nobody is to blame here An industry who employs women as booth babes , apparently because staring at a booth babe sells tech better? Stinks.

Oh okay. We'll blame the entire obviously monolithic industry then.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#200
post #66
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the post you linked to... "So pattern recognition is a useless heuristic made up by a group of rich white men as a way to quantify something" If that statement isn't racist, biased, and, well, just quite mean really, then I'm not sure what is.

I always hesitate to post this on HN, because it almost never goes well, but here it is: Racism (sexism/classism/etc) is not about race (sex/class/etc). It's about power. For this reason alone (let alone all the other good ones), there is no symmetry in these biases (e.g. the false equivalence of misogyny and misandry).

It's official! It's literally not possible to be racist against white men you guys! Tumblr was right all along!
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