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Installing VLC Media Player voids your speaker warranty

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Re: Installing VLC Media Player voids your speaker warranty

#191

Post by [deleted] »

dpe82 wrote: post #183
mikeash wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the info. I was familiar with most of that, but didn't think the difference would be so big. How much of a "safety factor" are we talking about between the ability to handle normal audio and the ability to handle this sort of catastrophic case? In other words, how much would you have to turn down the maximum volume limit? Is it a factor of 2, or 10, or 100...? If it's a factor of 2, for example, just take…

It's hard to know. Speakers are insanely complex beasts whose electrical reactance changes depending on the signal. To simplify things we use measures like RMS current ratings for amplifiers because if you put a sine wave through a speaker they tend to approximate a resistive load due to most of the load being air, and we use nominal impedance to describe speakers because while even though for something as simple as…

[deleted]

Re: Installing VLC Media Player voids your speaker warranty

#192

Post by NeliX4 »

jbk wrote: post #22
zimbatm wrote: post #7

Not speaking of Dell's behavior but VLC should maybe add a warning to the settings when the user goes over 100% if it damages the speakers.

VLC cannot damage anything more than any other player using the Windows APIs.

Yes it does. It makes too simple for non-techical user to make the signal distorted. Distorted signal can damage a speaker, even in low volume. It's irrelevat to blame "the others do it too".

I've seen it happen many times in meetings. 1. Presenter shows a video and volume is low. 2. Presenter adds volume from VLC to 200% and sound signal gets distorted. 3. Sound is awful, no-one can hear anything and people are doing nothing to fix it, because they think that speakers are broken.

Please VLC, fix your player so that it has good sounding limiter on the "output". It's not difficult.

Re: Installing VLC Media Player voids your speaker warranty

#193

Post by aestra »

skriticos2 wrote: post #71
aestra wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um in my experience all laptop speakers of all brands are like that.

No. I have a System76 Ubuntu laptop and the speaker quality is excellent. Plays music nicely and sound is clear and crisp. How many quality laptops do you have experience with?

Never had a System76, but I've owned a few Asus and a Toshiba and when I lived with 5 other people in college, the topic came up and we all agreed on the quality of our respective laptop speakers. Of course I was in college quite a while ago.

Re: Installing VLC Media Player voids your speaker warranty

#194

Post by dpe82 »

mikeash wrote: post #188
dpe82 wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to know. Speakers are insanely complex beasts whose electrical reactance changes depending on the signal. To simplify things we use measures like RMS current ratings for amplifiers because if you put a sine wave through a speaker they tend to approximate a resistive load due to most of the load being air, and we use nominal impedance to describe speakers because while even though for something as simple as…

I don't really get this description of mitigations as "overzealous". Sure, there's going to be some margin there, but that's just good engineering. The rev limiter on my car's engine doesn't kick in right at the critical RPM where everything falls apart, but some amount below. My CPU's thermal underclocking doesn't start right at the temperature where the component fails, but some comfortable distance below. You coul…

Dynamic audio power limiting introduces a whole host of audio distortions that would cause your computer to lie to you by not playing what you told it to. Your computer lying to you is a problem in principal I think, but specifically if you're doing any kind of sound editing/composition it's a huge problem because now you can't know if what you're hearing represents what you're creating or if your os or sound card has messed with it somehow.

As I mentioned, Dell could turn down the input volume to their amp/speakers. It doesn't totally eliminate the ability for a user to damage their speakers but it also doesn't create any distortions. I would guess that's what their bios update does. It just makes everything quieter for everyone.

I appreciate the principal that userland code shouldn't be able to damage hardware, but I'd much prefer my computer not lie to me. Now, I'm also not opposed to dynamic power limiters in general. In fact, that's exactly what VLC should be using if they insist on letting users crank things past levels that would otherwise clip. It just doesn't belong in the os or hardware.

Re: Installing VLC Media Player voids your speaker warranty

#195

Post by laumars »

PhantomGremlin wrote: post #178
TeMPOraL wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm no expert but maybe it's actually possible to create speaker that doesn't go bad. Of course it is, but nobody wants to do that; it's not profitable. * sigh * . I sometimes wonder how difficult would it be to create, say, a brand of kettles with lifetime warranty, designed to last 50+ years instead of 50+ weeks the ones we have do. How hard would it be to sell them and to what ends would the competition go to st…

Over on this side of the pond we generally use "coffee makers" instead of "kettles". But the problem is the same. They fail after a few years. It's all cheap consumer crap made in China. We've given up trying to buy "good" coffee makers. We just buy something cheap that's on sale and throw it away when it breaks. There should be the equivalent of "Gresham's Law" for consumer goods (the bad eliminates the good). But I…

We have coffee makers as well, but you can't make a cup of tea with a coffee machine.

Nor make a cup-a-soup, pot/instant noodles, pre-boil water for cooking veg, hot water bottle, etc.

Re: Installing VLC Media Player voids your speaker warranty

#196

Post by mikeash »

dpe82 wrote: post #194
mikeash wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really get this description of mitigations as "overzealous". Sure, there's going to be some margin there, but that's just good engineering. The rev limiter on my car's engine doesn't kick in right at the critical RPM where everything falls apart, but some amount below. My CPU's thermal underclocking doesn't start right at the temperature where the component fails, but some comfortable distance below. You coul…

Dynamic audio power limiting introduces a whole host of audio distortions that would cause your computer to lie to you by not playing what you told it to. Your computer lying to you is a problem in principal I think, but specifically if you're doing any kind of sound editing/composition it's a huge problem because now you can't know if what you're hearing represents what you're creating or if your os or sound card ha…

Your computer's already lying to you by piping your audio through crappy speakers. Is the distortion actually going to be worse with a limiter in place?

I really don't understand, why do you think this functionality doesn't belong in the OS or the hardware? To me, you're basically saying that you're OK with giving arbitrary web sites the ability to damage your hardware, since that's effectively what that ends up implying.

Re: Installing VLC Media Player voids your speaker warranty

#198

Post by pille »

marshray wrote: post #179
ferongr wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While any software that accesses an audio interface using integer formats, VLC is to my knowledge the only average user-oriented program that can end up in such situations. I would suggest VLC disables this feature for new installs and move it to an easily discoverable preference. Or if they really care enough to allow their users to boost the volume levels of quiet movies to replace the gain multiplication with a pr…

If Dell isn't going to honor the warranty if I listen to my favorite square-wave music, they should state "ONLY SINE WAVES ALLOWED" clearly in the advertising material.

Well physically speaking, sine waves ARE the only thing you can put through dell speakers, or any speakers.

Dell would have to set an upper limit on the wave superposition, or set a top frequency.

Re: Installing VLC Media Player voids your speaker warranty

#199

Post by aldanor »

ferongr wrote: post #131
anaphor wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also many mastering engineers do the exact same thing to make the music "louder" because the record label/artists demand it. Maybe Dell should start making popular rock/pop music void the warranty as well.

Well, mastering engineers rarely heavily clip audio (ok, Death Magnetic, but that's an exception rather than the rule). What they do is apply heavy dynamic range compression. Even in cases the signal clips lightly, it probably won't do much damage (if at all) since the peaks are transient. On the other hand, a movie with lots of low frequency content (explosions and stuff) whose audio is clipping will damage the smal…

Maybe VLC could use a limiter with a softer knee perhaps?

Or a multi-band limiter for the explosions.

Re: Installing VLC Media Player voids your speaker warranty

#200

Post by alandarev »

slacka wrote: post #104
fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Low quality speakers and a poor hardware design. It isn't even a challenge to match amplifier output to speakers in such a way that the amplifier can't break the speaker. There are easily a dozen cheap ways to make this work properly that don't rely upon a probably non-existent WMP based solution. >VLC does not, and cannot modify the OUTPUT volume to destroy the speakers. That would be remarkable. >And as VLC is pres…

Dell may be using poor quality parts. VLC can also make the sound louder than any other media player that I've used while generating destructive square clipping. The problem is it's too easy to set the volume above 100%. I've done so with the mouse wheel. And I now have a $2000 out-of-warranty laptop with blown speakers. Fixes could include: * Not remember settings above 100% between sessions unless an advanced optio…

Uninstall VLC = your warranty is back.
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