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How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

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Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tech engineers get pushed around by upper management and have failed to professionalize like doctors because too many of them lack social and political savvy. It's a clear personality trait in the profession. Look at the way so many programmers choose to dress and groom. Can you imagine a top lawyer looking like that? The importance of projecting a serious professional image to the broader society doesn't seem to eve…

Exactly, but it's worse. There are programmers who love calling themselves "geeks", "nerds", "code monkeys" and promote boot camp style schools as well as myths such as "anybody can code" such that people think any homeless person off the street is a coder. You don't get doctors and lawyers talking down their own skills or saying it's easy.

I think there are two different "programmer archetypes" that help prevent unions from forming. The first you identified: programmers who have conflated, mistakenly, "doing what you love is more important than compensation" with "compensation is unimportant if the work you're doing is something you're passionate about."

The second is the cadre of elitist programmers who think they are more intelligent than anybody else, and that therefore if a programmer isn't swimming in money shoved at him by an employer it's because he's not good enough. The egos in the software world dwarf those in the academic world I come from (and that is, believe me, an impressive achievement). Hilariously, it seems to me at least that far more programmers fancy themselves a sort of Programming John Galt (or, perhaps, being a citizen of some Programmer's Lake Woebegon, where all the programmers are above average). They relish competition because they believe, erroneously, that they're working in a meritocracy and that their own skills are so exceptional they will definitely rise to the top anyway.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#192
post #26

Engineers should make more money than what they are making now. The largest number I heard lately is $240k for a data scientist from Apple. That's too low! That person can make Siri better and make millions for Apple. Why aren't we getting paid like lawyers? If they win $20M they will get paid at least $2M. But if we make a product that generates $20M profit, at best we get $20K bonus. This has to change!

> Why aren't we getting paid like lawyers? If they win $20M they will get paid at least $2M. But if we make a product that generates $20M profit, at best we get $20K bonus. This has to change!

Is that really true? Their firm might get 2M. But in a big case, I imagine there are many lawyers and assistants involved. Sure the partners are going to do quite well. But, the founders of a tech firm also do quite well when their company receives a windfall of cash.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#193

The typical response I hear to the idea of more widespread labor unions or AMA-like professional associations for programmers and network/systems/storage/database administrators is that if someone is really talented, they can negotiate a good salary, and that labor organizing together would just protect the lazy and the slackers. You hear this same thing when someone is lowballed a salary number, or has to put up wit…

Tech engineers get pushed around by upper management and have failed to professionalize like doctors because too many of them lack social and political savvy. It's a clear personality trait in the profession. Look at the way so many programmers choose to dress and groom. Can you imagine a top lawyer looking like that? The importance of projecting a serious professional image to the broader society doesn't seem to eve…

> Look at the way so many programmers choose to dress and groom.

Doctors/lawyers interact with clients/patients a lot, so they dress to impress; whereas programmers only interact with other programmers or managers, who don't really care. If you're a programmer, the code you write matters much more than the human interaction around it (arguably the same can be said about doctors and lawyers, but a lot of people wouldn't hire a lawyer dressed in jeans and a t-shirt).

Also, there are external dress requirements. For example, a lawyer might get thrown out of court if he/she shows up in casual clothes.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#194

I remember reading that these pacts don't apply if an employee initiates contact with another company. Seems like that would be the best way to get salaries closer to market rates - simply be proactive and always talk to other companies and get your company to increase your salary to stay.

You missed the part where salary ranges are shared, that before an offer is made the current employer is made aware of what is about to happen, and more... I suggest you read the article it is quite comprehensive the measures taken to decrease pressure on rising wages.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#195

Jobs' comments: >OK, I’ll tell our recruiters they are free to approach any Adobe employee who is not a Sr. Director or VP. Am I understanding your position correctly? >if you [Brin] hire a single one of these people that means war. Chizen's comment: >if I tell Steve [Jobs] it’s open season (other than senior managers), he will deliberately poach Adobe just to prove a point. Knowing Steve, he will go after some of ou…

It's hard to say, from just this snippet. You forgot to mention that Chizen tried to slime his way out of the problem by claiming he was only hiring junior-level staff. So Steve responded, rather sarcastically, "Okay, so everyone is open game then?", and then Chizen goes "No I was just kidding! Let's just be friends! Tee hee!". I mean, Steve was a douche for a lot of other reasons. But this is savvy business right he…

He was also breaking the law.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#196
post #148

It seems like we should be able to measure whatever effect there was. There must be sources of data about salaries in the Bay Area. Has anyone tried looking to see if there is a depression in tech workers' salaries, relative to people in other fields, during the time this agreement was in force?

I doubt we will ever be able to "measure" the effect. We can only guess and debate it with hypothetical scenarios -- "what if all these CEOs had had to compete for talented employees, instead of fixing the market for them?"

Regardless of the effect, it is a shame to see that these leading CEOs, who for years have vociferously complained about media & telecom oligopolies for preventing competition, were for years simultaneously using their oligopoly to prevent competition for employees.

Apparently, they're all for free markets, except when it affects their bottom line!

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tech engineers get pushed around by upper management and have failed to professionalize like doctors because too many of them lack social and political savvy. It's a clear personality trait in the profession. Look at the way so many programmers choose to dress and groom. Can you imagine a top lawyer looking like that? The importance of projecting a serious professional image to the broader society doesn't seem to eve…

> Look at the way so many programmers choose to dress and groom. Doctors/lawyers interact with clients/patients a lot, so they dress to impress; whereas programmers only interact with other programmers or managers, who don't really care. If you're a programmer, the code you write matters much more than the human interaction around it (arguably the same can be said about doctors and lawyers, but a lot of people wouldn…

> programmers only interact with other programmers or managers

This is the problem half the time. Nerds in childish t-shirts want to sit around pecking out code in isolation instead of taking full responsibility for their work by putting on a jacket and working the organization. This is why IT projects are consistently such disasters and why executives have the idea to get cheap grunts to do this stuff under a layer of middle managers.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#198
post #94
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Society's behavior just serves to convince us that the hacker ethos was right after all. … We are decentralized. No thank you to all forms of government. Well, I'm certainly convinced that pure optimism will trump powerful interests with huge financial reserves and far more influence with lawmakers and the media. How could this not succeed?

What exactly are you proposing? An alternative credo for hackers to ascribe to? Please specifically mention whether you are pro- or anti-union and whether you live and work in the US or not. Edit: I see you're using Windows, so would you mind also listing your tech experience?

> I see you're using Windows, so would you mind also listing your tech experience?

WTF? Please explain your comment. If I take it literally it sounds like sheer unadulterated bigotry.

I am hoping that I completely misunderstood you. If that's the case, I very sincerely apologize and owe you a beer or two.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#199
post #171
post #148

It seems like we should be able to measure whatever effect there was. There must be sources of data about salaries in the Bay Area. Has anyone tried looking to see if there is a depression in tech workers' salaries, relative to people in other fields, during the time this agreement was in force?

It is funny that there would be reason to complain, given that this statistic would probably show that tech is a profitable place to work relative to other industries. But we're talking about the tech employee's relative share of the company's own profits, right? which means cross-industry comparisons aren't relevant. i'm sure this is the line the defense would take. I guess - we would be asked to believe that even t…

The comment about taxes is a complete non sequitur and detracts from the rest of your thoughts.

Do you voluntarily pay more tax than you are legally obligated to? Likely not.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#200
post #196
post #148

It seems like we should be able to measure whatever effect there was. There must be sources of data about salaries in the Bay Area. Has anyone tried looking to see if there is a depression in tech workers' salaries, relative to people in other fields, during the time this agreement was in force?

I doubt we will ever be able to "measure" the effect. We can only guess and debate it with hypothetical scenarios -- "what if all these CEOs had had to compete for talented employees, instead of fixing the market for them?" Regardless of the effect, it is a shame to see that these leading CEOs, who for years have vociferously complained about media & telecom oligopolies for preventing competition, were for years simu…

Apparently, they're all for free markets, except when it affects their bottom line!

Seems to be a trend in every discipline, why should Big Tech be any different?

See: Big TELCO, Big Banking, Big Oil, Big Ag etc...

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