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Drugs and the Meaning of Life (2011)

samharris.org

191–200 of 278 posts

Re: Drugs and the Meaning of Life (2011)

#191
Wow. From the article:

  On my first trip to Nepal, I took a 
  rowboat out on Phewa Lake in Pokhara, 
  which offers a stunning view of the 
  Annapurna range. It was early morning, 
  and I was alone. As the sun rose over 
  the water, I ingested 400 micrograms 
  of LSD
I can't imagine what it must be like to be someone who would do something like that. I just... can't. Is that a sign of good judgment, or of cowardice?

Re: Drugs and the Meaning of Life (2011)

#192
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His analogies are apt. His point is that in all those cases the signal itself is meaningless and inconsequential to the end. The victim, in his examples, is the achievement of the end goal, which becomes a casualty of focusing only on the signal. It probably applies to stimulant drugs more than it does to drugs like LSD. But like the original essay suggests, there's probably an evolutionary reason why we don't consta…

> Introducing drugs into this method will shifts the balance to the less optimal side of the reward-effort continuum. There is absolutely no basis of support for that in your argument. I think you can reasonably make the argument that using drugs shifts the balance in one direction, but to say that it ends up over-the-line rather than to a potentially more optimal location on that continuum is begging the question.

Go ahead and try the experiment. Lock two people in two rooms and give one a choice of food or cocaine every day and the other just food. What do you think will happen? It's pretty clear the one with cocaine will be slightly less nourished than the one without cocaine.

The cocaine doesn't offer any benefit except a surge of dopamine. Maybe you could argue the guy has ADHD, and the cocaine helps him function normally, but given two normal people my hypothesis is probably correct.

Re: Drugs and the Meaning of Life (2011)

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you think you know about psychedelic drugs is not true. If you judge what drug proponents say against what you think that you know, of course you'll find what they say dishonest. What many of them say is on a far firmer scientific footing than what you're saying. LSD does not cause people to be schizophrenic; schizophrenia shows itself during the most likely years for people to be experimenting with drugs. edit:…

> LSD does not cause people to be schizophrenic; schizophrenia shows itself during the most likely years for people to be experimenting with drugs. This is very misleading at best. LSD use causes direct symptoms of psychosis, including symptoms of schizophrenia, schizoaffective, and schizophreniform disorders. The effects of LSD resemble schizophrenia so closely, in fact, that it has led to studies on rats using LSD…

> The effects of LSD resemble schizophrenia so closely, in fact, that it has led to studies on rats using LSD as a hypothetical model to represent schizophrenia. In other words, we give rats LSD and see what chemicals reduce the effects to find treatments for schizophrenia.

And that was the research which led to the rejection of LSD as a model for schizophrenia, and there is still no evidence tying LSD to schizophrenia as all the correlations are heavily contaminated by polydrug use.

It's messy, but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSD_and_schizophrenia is a better overview of the topic...

Re: Drugs and the Meaning of Life (2011)

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His analogies are apt. His point is that in all those cases the signal itself is meaningless and inconsequential to the end. The victim, in his examples, is the achievement of the end goal, which becomes a casualty of focusing only on the signal. It probably applies to stimulant drugs more than it does to drugs like LSD. But like the original essay suggests, there's probably an evolutionary reason why we don't consta…

From a purely natural perspective, the "goal" of life is to reproduce as much as possible.

If you define that as the goal, my argument still stands and it's still advantageous to not introduce artificial stimulants into the procedure.

Re: Drugs and the Meaning of Life (2011)

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you think you know about psychedelic drugs is not true. If you judge what drug proponents say against what you think that you know, of course you'll find what they say dishonest. What many of them say is on a far firmer scientific footing than what you're saying. LSD does not cause people to be schizophrenic; schizophrenia shows itself during the most likely years for people to be experimenting with drugs. edit:…

> LSD does not cause people to be schizophrenic; schizophrenia shows itself during the most likely years for people to be experimenting with drugs. This is very misleading at best. LSD use causes direct symptoms of psychosis, including symptoms of schizophrenia, schizoaffective, and schizophreniform disorders. The effects of LSD resemble schizophrenia so closely, in fact, that it has led to studies on rats using LSD…

I don't think we know enough about schizophrenia or LSD to say they are the same thing.

Most of the lsd-eaters I've talked with have talked about a visual effect called "tracers", but the handful of schizophrenics I've talked to don't talk about tracers, but they do talk about hallucinatory voices, depression, paranoia and confusion.

That said, I think that your current brain chemistry definitely affects your drug experience. If you have mental health issues, stay away from hallucinogens.

Like I said in another post, I have used psilocybin. The effects I had were not typical of what most other people described. I had a whole other set of "special effects" I experienced, consistently. After talking with many people, I found that a few other people shared virtually the same hallucinatory effects, and they seemed to have ADHD or some kind of OCD or were very tech-geeky. (And, I haven't been diagnosed, but I bite my nails and have a mild hoarding problem. That's a sign of possible OCD.)

So, I don't seek out this type of drug anymore.

Re: Drugs and the Meaning of Life (2011)

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not just a matter of resembling psychosis. Haloperidol and olanzapine, two common prescriptions for schizophrenia, have been demonstrated to reduce the effects of LSD. There is a connection between the psychoactive properties of LSD and the neurological etiology of schizophrenia, though the connection needs to be studied further. Yes, research should not be taken as gospel, but it is foolish to think that the…

> Haloperidol and olanzapine, two common prescriptions for schizophrenia, have been demonstrated to reduce the effects of LSD. That is such a bullshit statement. A wide array of pharmaceuticals reduce the effects of LSD as well as other drugs for that matter.

Number 1 rule: If you're having a bad LSD trip head straight for the liquor; that'll kill your trip good and fast. What's your point?

Dont mean to be rude, but I'm calling out your schizophrenia association as wild-eyed bullshit, too.

Re: Drugs and the Meaning of Life (2011)

#197
post #141
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there evidence to support the claim that Van Gogh believed cutting his ear off was important to his life and work? If not, then this is a very different example to that of Jobs' claim and is an equally poor way of refuting a position.

There's no evidence to that. From my personal experience (yes, anecdotal etc) with dozens of LSD taking friends over the course of many many years, they all end up attributing huge importance to their acid trips, and all the insights gained from them. The problem is this is the same with the brilliant friend, and with the do nothing, sit on my couch all day friend. For example: one of my friends, after taking acid, w…

Plato's Cave.

Re: Drugs and the Meaning of Life (2011)

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His analogies are apt. His point is that in all those cases the signal itself is meaningless and inconsequential to the end. The victim, in his examples, is the achievement of the end goal, which becomes a casualty of focusing only on the signal. It probably applies to stimulant drugs more than it does to drugs like LSD. But like the original essay suggests, there's probably an evolutionary reason why we don't consta…

Evolutionary reasons keep us surviving at any cost - in this discussion the cost is the sacrifice of appreciation of the beauty of everything, etc. Indeed you might die to predators more if you were distracted by how pretty that tree trunk is, but that reasoning no longer applies since we are not part of the food chain. You seem to be using what evolution "settled on" as support for your argument - that is a very wro…

No, not at any cost. I talked about that in my original post.

>> If you tweak it to give no increase in experience and happiness, and focus only on survivability, you'll have no incentive to survive (no reason to live, because we've defined the goal of life to increase experience and happiness).

I explain that "surviving at any cost" is not an optimal solution either, because we as humans would no longer have an incentive to survive.

The fact is our happiness and willingness to keep going is as much a factor of evolution as our physical survivability... so it's NOT wrong to base it on what evolution "settled on."

Perhaps we may not die from predators, but there are other things. Here's a thought experiment:

Consider an impending asteroid heading for Earth. Which nations or peoples do you think will have the highest chance of surviving? The technologically backwards but harmonious communists, the technologically advanced capitalists, the crack addicts, or the non-crack addicts?

You'll probably conclude that technology matters, not spending every waking moment appreciating the beauty in trees matter, and not feeling high all the time for no reason also matters. We need proper reward-response pathways in order to maximize our survival. Introducing artificially stimulating drugs disrupts it. It sends a false signal, which, according to Paul Graham, can be one of the most crippling things if we don't think it's bad. http://www.paulgraham.com/selfindulgence.html

"The most dangerous way to lose time is not to spend it having fun, but to spend it doing fake work."

Getting the dopamine reward from a stimulant drug is like doing fake work, because you're being rewarded like if you actually did the work. Keep in mind, I'm talking about simulants, so LSD doesn't apply here, but there is probably a reason we weren't born fascinated with trees and every little thing.

Re: Drugs and the Meaning of Life (2011)

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's simply misleading to quote studies comparing the effects of acute LSD intoxication to the symptoms that can be seen in psychotic people as evidence that LSD in some way causes schizophrenia. Drunken people share symptoms with schizophrenics too, as well as people who have gone without sleep.

Try taking LSD and then tell me if some aspect of the experience could not be described as schizophrenic. Seriously comparing the state of being drunk with that of one tripping their (rational) mind off is liking comparing apples and moons.

IMO, the mood-swings and irrational, dangerous behavior that Alcohol tends to induce seem to me to be far more schizophrenic than the states brought on by LSD.

Re: Drugs and the Meaning of Life (2011)

#200
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reply A: What you describe will happen no matter what, so it would likely be more interesting for everyone involved if your posts were not just talking for talk's sake :) Reply B: Why are you posting at all then?

Ok then, here's one. One time after dropping some acid, I was lying on the couch and above my head was a rather large asparagus fern hanging over my head. While staring at this plant and pondering the deeper meaning of life, it suddenly began to twitch. The branches were bouncing up and down an inch or two. From that point on, and for many years later, whenever I looked at that plant from anywhere in the room, the br…

I can totally relate to this as well. I've been places with dimethyltryptamine that I can't even begin to describe. Hellish eternities that seemed to last thousands of years, domains lorded over by beings which, with great fun, make you suddenly appear to loose limbs, cast you out into space, control your thoughts, alien abduction, etc.

Its pretty unspeakable and frightening, but at the same time fascinating and mysterious. The weights on the scales are nigh.

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