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Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

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Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#191

Post by abraininavat »

Goladus wrote: post #120
nkoren wrote: post #45

The Declaration of Independence states that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Gendered language aside, the idea of the founders was clearly that rights derive from one's innate humanity, and do not derive from government largess. This was the…

It would, perhaps, be enlightening to quote the entire sentence from the US Declaration of Independence: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the c…

I'm pretty sure nkoren's point has just flown over your head.

You're talking about the obligations of the US Government. The US Government clearly only has the obligation to secure the rights of its own citizens.

nkoren is talking about the rights of the US Government. Just look at the language of the very first clause. All men are guaranteed these rights. It makes no mention of citizenship. That the US Government has the obligation to protect the rights of only US citizens does not mean that it has the right to violate the rights of non-US citizens. I don't buy the bullshit that the government can only protect my rights by violating the rights of others. That's small-minded thinking.

I agree with 4891 that nations act like criminal gangs. I seem to be one of very few who believe they shouldn't, though.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#192

Post by abraininavat »

4891 wrote: post #162
Goladus wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would, perhaps, be enlightening to quote the entire sentence from the US Declaration of Independence: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the c…

Thank you - this is the most sensible comment I've seen in this thread. Many thinkers throughout history have noted that states and criminal gangs are effectively the same. They are both inherently violent organisations. Criminal gangs are tiny states; states are large, settled criminal gangs. The Yakuza in Japan or the Cray family (when they ruled half of London) are examples of intermediate forms: criminal gangs th…

I addressed your us-versus-them mindset in my reply to Goladus, but I couldn't help but point out how disingenuous this is:

Good can triumph over evil, but as even Jesus said, it needs the "cunning of snakes" to succeed.

The whole quote is: "I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves."

You conveniently forgot the "innocent as doves" part, obviously because it doesn't fit in with the rest of your argument that America must act like a cirminal gang to secure peace. I feel unfortunate to live in a world filled with others who feel the same as you.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#193

Post by Goladus »

bobwaycott wrote: post #185
Goladus wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would, perhaps, be enlightening to quote the entire sentence from the US Declaration of Independence: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the c…

But to follow that completely, you've also made no contract by your consent to give your government the power to arrest, prosecute, or employ various armed agents to use against another who has not so consented to your government. Treaties are an implicit social contract. The parties to a treaty are contracting binding social obligations and permissible and expected behaviors. If they were not a social contract, they…

But to follow that completely, you've also made no contract by your consent to give your government the power to arrest, prosecute, or employ various armed agents to use against another who has not so consented to your government.

It's true that's outside the scope of my comment. However, once again referring to the Declaration of Independence, the concluding paragraph includes comments that the notion of statehood includes these rights[1]:

as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do.

Specifically, that's the role of the Head of State (The President) and the State Department.

====

Violating a treaty is violating a social contract. A social contract does not equal a constitution alone.

My intent was to draw a distinction between the relationship between the US government and its own people and the relationship between the the US government and non-citizens. My use of the term "social contract" was a reference to the specific Enlightenment concept.

The distinction was drawn in order to help explain to people why reactions to domestic spying are different than reactions to, say, the CIA spying in Pakistan. Domestic spying gets a more visceral, widespread negative reaction because the social contract a between government and its own citizens is highly sensitive. It's the only thing preventing oppression and tyranny-- violations should always result in an immediate flurry of public discourse, political consequences, and push to address the breach. This is not to say that treaty violations and other interaction with foreign actors is not serious-- there was no shortage of outrage about for Abu Ghraib-- but people are one step removed in any such interaction in a way that they are not when the government has offended its own.

[1] Selective quote, yes. But most relevant to the point. The "Supreme Judge of the World" part is interesting and relevant to the discussion in general but I didn't have time to address it.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#194

Post by giardini »

TimJRobinson wrote: post #98

As an Australian this is exactly how I feel. Over the past few weeks I've been moving many of my business systems off the cloud and onto self hosted servers and using less and less American servers because they clearly have no issue with taking foreigners information and with tens of thousands of contractors and employees able to access that information I wonder how long it's going be before big companies are able to…

"I wonder how long it's going be before big companies are able to effectively spy on competitors through having a 'friend' with access to prism."

How long? I think this has been happening for some time now. There's no mechanism for watching the watchers. Furthermore as software developers we know that there's always an unaudited path to the data and people _will_ access it for their own benefit.

Bloomberg had access to how Goldman-Sachs uses Bloomberg's terminals so Bloomberg employees took advantage. The NSA can see Bloomberg, Goldman-Sachs and every financial firms' queries and transactions, all telephone calls and all e-mails, all internet surfing (for starters), where they eat lunch and what road they drive home on. NSA employees will be tempted (or possibly allowed or even encouraged) to take advantage.

And what better way to get money to pay for unauthorized or secret black operations? There may be much happening right now that is completely unauthorized (even by NSA) and completely out of the purview of those who supposedly are in charge.

We may never, ever see the size of this iceberg. It could be spawning sizable financially autonomous mini-icebergs that continue to function even after this one has been melted down. This is a fscking nightmare scenario.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#196

Post by jacoblyles »

sounds wrote: post #60
obviouslygreen wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We, the people, chose leaders and were betrayed. That doesn't just apply to the US... Absolutely true. Unfortunately, in my opinion, one of the things that simply does not work in modern democracy is the election system, two-party death march or otherwise: Candidates play to emotion and often outright lie or intentionally overpromise solely for the purpose of attaining office. And it works, every damn time. They then…

No, the ability to choose the outcome is still well and truly in our hands. I didn't say when or where, but I do believe that the power to govern invariably flows from the people themselves.

99.999% of government officials aren't close to being touched by elections. Do you honestly believe you can change government significantly while leaving 99.999% of the government unchanged?

See my previous comment on the issue: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5842029

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#197

Post by jacoblyles »

tome wrote: post #84
nkoren wrote: post #45

The Declaration of Independence states that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Gendered language aside, the idea of the founders was clearly that rights derive from one's innate humanity, and do not derive from government largess. This was the…

> This ideal is all but gone. Doesn't slavery demonstrate that this ideal never even existed in the first place?

I can't understand the historical perspective that trashes the founders because of slavery. After fighting a long guerrilla rebellion and forming a new nation with a novel form of government, were they supposed to immediately turn on southern slave owners in another bloody war? If so, the American republic would have lasted maybe 10 years.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#198

Post by akiselev »

4891 wrote: post #162
Goladus wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would, perhaps, be enlightening to quote the entire sentence from the US Declaration of Independence: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the c…

Thank you - this is the most sensible comment I've seen in this thread. Many thinkers throughout history have noted that states and criminal gangs are effectively the same. They are both inherently violent organisations. Criminal gangs are tiny states; states are large, settled criminal gangs. The Yakuza in Japan or the Cray family (when they ruled half of London) are examples of intermediate forms: criminal gangs th…

Just to reinforce this point and the fact that it is not going away: this is literally natural law.

Our weapons are no different than bacterial antibiotic resistances and all the other genetic mutations that have led to what life is today. It does not matter if all seven billion people consented, all it would take is one willing person with a weapon strong enough to subdue the rest of civilization to take power. That weapon doesn't even need to be technology, it could be as simple as blackmailing the people holding the power.

The struggle for life, let alone liberty and privacy, has always been an arms race and it always will be.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#199

Post by 4891 »

abraininavat wrote: post #192
4891 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you - this is the most sensible comment I've seen in this thread. Many thinkers throughout history have noted that states and criminal gangs are effectively the same. They are both inherently violent organisations. Criminal gangs are tiny states; states are large, settled criminal gangs. The Yakuza in Japan or the Cray family (when they ruled half of London) are examples of intermediate forms: criminal gangs th…

I addressed your us-versus-them mindset in my reply to Goladus, but I couldn't help but point out how disingenuous this is: Good can triumph over evil, but as even Jesus said, it needs the "cunning of snakes" to succeed. The whole quote is: "I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves." You conveniently forgot the "innocent as doves" part, obviously because…

You misunderstand my argument. Obviously Jesus says that you should do good. Apparently that was a big part of his shtick. But if you want to actually do good you need to have a pretty fucking clear idea of how the world works. Because, y'know, wolves. It's not that America must act like a criminal gang, it's that it lives in a neighbourhood patrolled by a number of criminal gangs, so even if its ultimate goal is to kumbayah the world into submission it should probably keep a few guns in reserve, just in case.

"I feel unfortunate to live in a world filled with others who feel the same as you."

Judging by the comments here, I think its filled more with people who feel the same as you. It's not since the 19th century that people like me have been common, though the ideas I'm riffing on were already old during the Roman Empire, who succesfully implemented the only known formula for world peace discovered to date (si vis pacem, para bellum). The 20th century was full of idealistic visionaries who tried flipping this ancient wisdom, with predictable results.

You should feel unfortunate in about two or three decades though: that's when I forecast the West's technological and economic boons peter out and its various infringements of natural law finally catch up with it, and the east Asian nations bring back the old order: national sovereignty over world policing, mercantilism over outsourcing, savings over debt, and good governance over democracy.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#200

Post by freshhawk »

Perhaps it's because I'm Canadian and have lived in a world of "constantly aware of US politics but not governed by them" but I find the attitude the OP is now discarding to be superbly and painfully naive. Basically delusional. Imagine the feeling you would get when someone tells you "I entered by credit card number in that 'check if your credit card has been stolen' banner ad and it said I was safe, so that's good news". Same feeling.

So while I'm glad the realization has been had, and the childish notion has been discarded, I'm really worried that this is some kind of common idea among educated non-Americans. Is the ability to read newspapers or follow politics (actual politics, not the circus of party politics) of any kind in that much of a decline?

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