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Why Should I Care That No One’s Reading Dzhokhar Tsarnaev His Miranda Rights?

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Re: Why Should I Care That No One’s Reading Dzhokhar Tsarnaev His Miranda Rights?

#191

Post by rayiner »

icelancer wrote: post #118
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what's the "public safety exception" about then? We're starting from the position that, absent a public safety concern, the defendant's right to know his rights is greater than the law enforcement interest in not encouraging the defendant to exercise them, and if the cops don't read the Miranda rights then the statements aren't admissible. Now throw in a public safety issue -- the cops have to interrogate this guy…

The public safety exception strikes me as equivalent to the enemy combatant exception - a way to just skirt civil liberties when it seems relevant.

Civil liberties under the constitution are by and large not ironclad protections. Their scope has always been full of exceptions, because they date back to the privileges of englishman, as decided by common law courts. It has always involved a balancing between the exigencies of the situation, the need for an effective police, and the protection of the accused.

They're not ways of skirting civil liberties. They are ways of defining the contours of their protections.

Re: Why Should I Care That No One’s Reading Dzhokhar Tsarnaev His Miranda Rights?

#192

Post by cinquemb »

pyre wrote: post #144
cinquemb wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You also left out the plan to interrogate him for information that could be admissible in court that would/could conflit with self incrimination as reference in the 5th amendment. But hey, lets us tort laws because the ends justify the means, because we all know something like this will never happen again once this person or all possible related persons are brought to justice.

If you don't like the "Public Safety Exception," then lobby to get rid of it. I wouldn't suggest doing it in this case because there is likely enough evidence to convict him of multiple serious crimes without him uttering a peep (i.e. this isn't a good case to push towards the Supreme Court to make a decision on).

Who do you think I am? Goldman Sachs? I'm just a lowly peasant who has no say in the political process and the manufacturing of our laws, like most americans (and voting is much as a say in the political process as convicted felons chances at getting a job after being released from prison).

Well if the FBI has to release photos to the public for people they were already well aware of, I'm sure anything they call evidence would suffice, much in the same manor Netanyahu could parade in front of the UN with his Wile-e-Coyote poster.

Re: Why Should I Care That No One’s Reading Dzhokhar Tsarnaev His Miranda Rights?

#193

Post by cinquemb »

itstriz wrote: post #172
jhaglund wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ya know, I'm all for "innocent until proven guilty" but blury pictures of them dropping a bag, a witness description, a car chase where they threw bombs out the window, a shootout where one brother got hit with shrapnel of his own pressure cooker bomb, etc. Let justice do its blind thing but it's OK for us to state the obvious. They did it.

I'm getting the feeling the defense is going to have a hell of a time finding an impartial jury.

Especially when the general public main source of intel is flipping to CNN or Fox between a Honey Boo Boo commercial breaks.

Re: Why Should I Care That No One’s Reading Dzhokhar Tsarnaev His Miranda Rights?

#195

Post by pyre »

cinquemb wrote: post #192
pyre wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't like the "Public Safety Exception," then lobby to get rid of it. I wouldn't suggest doing it in this case because there is likely enough evidence to convict him of multiple serious crimes without him uttering a peep (i.e. this isn't a good case to push towards the Supreme Court to make a decision on).

Who do you think I am? Goldman Sachs? I'm just a lowly peasant who has no say in the political process and the manufacturing of our laws, like most americans (and voting is much as a say in the political process as convicted felons chances at getting a job after being released from prison). Well if the FBI has to release photos to the public for people they were already well aware of, I'm sure anything they call evid…

  | I'm just a lowly peasant who has no say in
  | the political process
You could just start a group based around your ideas. Once you get enough people together the group becomes a political force.

  | Well if the FBI has to release photos to the public
  | for people they were already well aware of
You do realize that there was a shoot-out with police, in addition to multiple other felonies committed after they released those photos. The guy doesn't even need to be convicted of the bombing to spend serious time behind bars.

Additionally, they don't need to know who someone is to have evidence that they did something. They could have a video of him planting the bomb, for example. Just because they don't know who it is in the video doesn't mean that they don't have evidence once they connect the face with a name.

Re: Why Should I Care That No One’s Reading Dzhokhar Tsarnaev His Miranda Rights?

#196

Post by jackfoxy »

From a notorious disinformation site http://debka.com/article/22914/The-Tsarnaev-brothers-were-do... a plausible explanation of the non-miranda situation. Perhaps someone more knowledgable can comment on how elite is Cambridge Rindge and Latin School http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Rindge_and_Latin_Scho...

Re: Why Should I Care That No One’s Reading Dzhokhar Tsarnaev His Miranda Rights?

#197

Post by rdl »

lurker14 wrote: post #110
rdl wrote: post #69

The FBI page on the "public safety exception" is really interesting: http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforceme...

Indeed. " The commitment to this rule is so strong that the Supreme Court has recognized only one exception to the Miranda rule" So, not much of a commitment at all. I am so committed to my wife that I only recognize one exception to my marriage vows: if I get a chance with a really attractive woman, then not only can I do it, but I can charge my wife for the cost of dinner.

I can see the merit in both ironclad protection against self incrimination, and the public safety value of making a scene safe.

I think the proper balance would probably be to allow physical evidence produced under "implied duress" (being in confinement/control and asked without being notified of Miranda rights), but not statements. So, maybe 25% more restrictive than the current legal standard.

The true problem with Mirandizing someone is that anyone who isn't a fucking moron will realize "oh, I shouldn't say anything until I get an attorney". Physical evidence is assumed to not depend upon statements to discover, but it certainly will be discovered faster with a statement. This argument isn't actually 100% valid in some scenes and with some types of evidence.

I don't have as much of a problem with lack of notification of someone of his rights vs. not giving him rights when demanded, too -- interrogating someone without Mirandizing him, in a very limited fashion, is less objectionable than doing the same interrogation under direct threat or execution of death/physical attack, drugs, etc.

Re: Why Should I Care That No One’s Reading Dzhokhar Tsarnaev His Miranda Rights?

#198

Post by ArtB »

jlgreco wrote: post #155
thomasz wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to see the difference between "waterboarding" and "strap electrodes to his genitals" torture.

That is because you understand what waterboarding is. The general public, at least at the time, seemed to lack a proper appreciation for what it really meant.

Waterboarding is torture: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUkj9pjx3H0

Re: Why Should I Care That No One’s Reading Dzhokhar Tsarnaev His Miranda Rights?

#199

Post by cinquemb »

pyre wrote: post #195
cinquemb wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who do you think I am? Goldman Sachs? I'm just a lowly peasant who has no say in the political process and the manufacturing of our laws, like most americans (and voting is much as a say in the political process as convicted felons chances at getting a job after being released from prison). Well if the FBI has to release photos to the public for people they were already well aware of, I'm sure anything they call evid…

| I'm just a lowly peasant who has no say in | the political process You could just start a group based around your ideas. Once you get enough people together the group becomes a political force. | Well if the FBI has to release photos to the public | for people they were already well aware of You do realize that there was a shoot-out with police, in addition to multiple other felonies committed after they released t…

"You could just start a group based around your ideas. Once you get enough people together the group becomes a political force."

Well after consulting with people behind some of tech behind OWS, I doubt something like this would be effective. After all, you paint a big red x on yourself for the FBI spooks to go after, while senators and bankers call you domestic terrorists while the police and private security beat you in the streets for not staying in the "Free Speech Zones". I think letting the country go down the path most of its citizens are willing to let if come to will suffice.

Yes, no doubt this person will be going to prison. But you suggest that they dont know who was in the video, and even the FBI has stated that they were well aware of who they were before the incident had even taken place. People have been saying matter-of-factly that they planted the bombs… gee wiz, I wonder where they got that idea since they haven't been convicted of anything yet.

In the meantime I'll keep pushing code and my matsci knowledge to Defense Distributed, since we all know real political power comes from the barrel of a gun (or a drone…).

Re: Why Should I Care That No One’s Reading Dzhokhar Tsarnaev His Miranda Rights?

#200

Post by [deleted] »

pyre wrote: post #195
cinquemb wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who do you think I am? Goldman Sachs? I'm just a lowly peasant who has no say in the political process and the manufacturing of our laws, like most americans (and voting is much as a say in the political process as convicted felons chances at getting a job after being released from prison). Well if the FBI has to release photos to the public for people they were already well aware of, I'm sure anything they call evid…

| I'm just a lowly peasant who has no say in | the political process You could just start a group based around your ideas. Once you get enough people together the group becomes a political force. | Well if the FBI has to release photos to the public | for people they were already well aware of You do realize that there was a shoot-out with police, in addition to multiple other felonies committed after they released t…

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