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Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

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Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#191

Post by stcredzero »

RockyMcNuts wrote: post #146
danso wrote: post #72

This whole controversy has been a little depressing to read...not that the Tesla vs. NYT discussions here have been worse than on other forums, but just because it shows how technical minded people are as easily swayed by preconceptions and alliances as more ostensibly non-scientific minds. How many words have been expended in the other HN thread to allege that Broder -- after most have already established that he is…

Musk doesn't show any smoking gun, and blows a lot of smoke. Methinks he doth protest too much. Musk comes across more as a Preston Tucker or a John DeLorean than a Henry Ford.

So, you're saying he's not anti-semitic? ("One of these things is not like the other...")

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#192

Post by ricardobeat »

OGinparadise wrote: post #40
jlgreco wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I, personally, would NOT want a car that is so specific about the speed, cabin temperature and so on If you fill a ICE car up with less gas you need to get to your destination and attempt to make it anyway, you are going to need to be just as particular about your technique. This should not be a news flash to anybody who has ever driven.

If you fill a ICE car up with less gas you need to get to your destination and attempt to make it anyway, you are going to need to be just as particular about your technique. Bad analogy, this http://www.statisticbrain.com/gas-station-statistics/ says that they are 121,446 gas stations in USA. It takes 5 minutes to add fuel for another 300 or so miles and they accept credit cards :)

Oops. Look at the map at the end of Musk's post. There were dozens of third-party stations in his route, the reviewer just didn't want to use them.

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#193

Post by lcc_tn »

rayiner wrote: post #139
naftaliharris wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Elon might have been better off concentrating on this point more, rather than some of the smaller inaccuracies. I agree. Often when you're arguing, you have a really strong argument and a few weaker ones. You'd think that making both the strong argument and the weaker ones would be the best case, (ie, that the strength of your case equals the sum of the strength of its components). In fact, in public discourse ofte…

> In fact, in public discourse often the opposite is true. This isn't just true in public discourse by the way. It's true in proposal/grant writing, legal argumentation, or even just arguing with your parents. You should always lead with your strongest arguments, and think very carefully before including any weak ones. Humans are just bad at doing weighted analysis of persuasive arguments. Say you have an argument, w…

What you say resonates very much with my experiences too.

Do you happen to have book recommendations maybe that talk about this at a greater length?

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#194

Post by InvisibleCities »

adastra wrote: post #24

The "Norwich Charge" data point is all you need to understand what happened here. Notice how vague Broder is in his original account: "After making arrangements to recharge at the Norwich station, I located the proper adapter in the trunk, plugged in and walked to the only warm place nearby, Butch’s Luncheonette and Breakfast Club, an establishment (smoking allowed) where only members can buy a cup of coffee or a pla…

I think you've missed the most important part of that paragraph:

>"...Tesla’s experts said that pumping in a little energy would help restore the power lost overnight as a result of the cold weather, and after an hour they cleared me to resume the trip to Milford."

Tesla themselves cleared Broder to make the trip. If I was driving a BMW with a BMW engineer in the front seat, and he told me that I would be able to make my journey despite the "empty" or "check engine" lights flashing, I would believe him and keep driving. I don't see why this scenario is any different.

To people who say that Broder is just making it up, and that Tesla never cleared him to make the journey, I ask you this: why won't Musk release the call logs to prove it?

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#195

Post by ZoFreX »

halviti wrote: post #87
danso wrote: post #72

This whole controversy has been a little depressing to read...not that the Tesla vs. NYT discussions here have been worse than on other forums, but just because it shows how technical minded people are as easily swayed by preconceptions and alliances as more ostensibly non-scientific minds. How many words have been expended in the other HN thread to allege that Broder -- after most have already established that he is…

I've read all the arguments on both sides, and while both have made good points, there is one that stands out. This reporter clearly barely made any attempt at recharging his empty vehicle in Norwich, and then attempted a drive well beyond the car's capabilities, then made the "running out of fuel" his headline. If he would have done this on gasoline, the result would have been the same, and I think that is getting l…

The reporter didn't really use the car correctly, agreed. There were other factors involved as well though: the poor performance in bad weather conditions, the weather conditions, and Tesla not providing good customer support. If Elon wants to stop this happening again, perhaps he should look to the factors he can control?

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#196

Post by slantyyz »

stcredzero wrote: post #178
slantyyz wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Sorry, but this is a huge stretch. Why? Even individual cars produced in assembly lines can have problems. When I worked at Toyota, there was a problem with a Lexus model that was so hard to isolate. Eventually, after a long data collection period, they found that the problem was only existent in cars painted in a certain color.

> Why? Even individual cars produced in assembly lines can have problems. So? If there's some conflicting results, we can then turn around and test the same car as well. If there's a problem, those are measurable. > When I worked at Toyota, there was a problem with a Lexus model that was so hard to isolate. Eventually, after a long data collection period, they found that the problem was only existent in cars painted…

>> Color and whatever other factors were measurable.

Sure, but it was such a rare problem that they tried to reproduce it using the same model and year and production run, assuming the problem would show up but it didn't. They didn't think colour would have been the identifying indicator of the problem until they had amassed enough data to lead them down that path.

Broder drove a car that has probably been used several times for review and other uses, and may have had more wear and tear and/or maintenance and service than a car sold to anyone else. It could also have been driven under stress conditions that a brand new model may not have been.

All I'm saying is that there's a lot about that car that could be different from other review cars. It could have been a freak occurrence and Tesla was unlucky enough that Broder was reviewing that car when it happened.

In any case, if you go to the Tesla owners forums talking about the NYT article, you'll also see actual owners who live on the east coast were not surprised by what happened to Broder (http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/13633-NYT-arti...).

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#197

Post by danielweber »

joe_the_user wrote: post #173
lawdawg wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you (or 99% of HN) read the NYT article? "When I parked the car, its computer said I had 90 miles of range, twice the 46 miles back to Milford. It was a different story at 8:30 the next morning. The thermometer read 10 degrees and the display showed 25 miles of remaining range" "I called Tesla in California, and the official I woke up said I needed to “condition” the battery pack to restore the lost energy." Look…

Well, if Broder's headline was "Tesla Employee Let My Car Run Down", he'd have been telling the story you can extract out of the text. However, "Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway" somehow tells a story where blame is a lot more fuzzy. Broder told a complicated story and put a poetically negative spin on it. It is entirely understandable that Musk would want to simplify this down to negative claims he could refu…

Just so you know, journalists typically have no control over headlines. They are often incredibly surprised by them.

EDIT: it may be different on blogs

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#198

Post by danielweber »

dublinben wrote: post #186
lawdawg wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you (or 99% of HN) read the NYT article? "When I parked the car, its computer said I had 90 miles of range, twice the 46 miles back to Milford. It was a different story at 8:30 the next morning. The thermometer read 10 degrees and the display showed 25 miles of remaining range" "I called Tesla in California, and the official I woke up said I needed to “condition” the battery pack to restore the lost energy." Look…

Tesla and every other EV manufacturer recommend charging overnight. The author wouldn't have been able to produce his catastrophic breakdown if he'd followed this simple precaution. It's also pretty clear from the data that he lied about the speed he was driving at.

Tesla says you don't have to plug in the vehicle overnight -- that you can leave it at the airport for a week. Maybe their marketing team overruled their technical team, but holding Tesla to something that Tesla claims to do isn't horrible.

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#199

Post by danielweber »

lawdawg wrote: post #107
scarmig wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that that's the weirdest part of the journalist's story. Why doesn't Musk focus on that? Instead of trying to discredit the reporter by saying he maliciously lied about when he turned the heat on or off by a couple miles, or whether the car had actually run out of juice at the very end.

Because focusing on that would be admitting that: 1. The Tesla lost ~65 miles worth of range overnight 2. That their staff told Mr. Broder that the lost miles would return on their own.

#1 seems a UX problem, not a tech problem. Clearly Tesla's fault, but nothing that will endanger the company.

#2 has been denied by Tesla. I'm not saying I believe them, but right now both sides say something different happened at that key point.

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#200

Post by danielweber »

adastra wrote: post #54
codex wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Earlier in the article, Broder claims that Tesla blamed the mileage inaccuracies on a computer glitch, and that some battery reconditioning would restore the range lost overnight. So it's not impossible that either he, or Tesla, (or both) believed the mileage readout to be inaccurately low, caused by a bug triggered by low temperature readings. I think the author implies that this was the situation, but it is indeed…

That all comes down to what Broder claims someone told him on a phone call. Except he doesn't quote them verbatim and never provides the name(s) of the people he was talking to. Given all that they had at stake, namely a disastrous NY Times review, how likely is it that Tesla would knowingly say "Oh, your reading says 30 miles, but you have more than twice that still to travel? Meh, it's probably just a computer glit…

Except he doesn't quote them verbatim and never provides the name(s) of the people he was talking to.

Well, he can't provide all possible data all at once in the original article.

Since your post, he has said who he was talking to: http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/14/that-tesla-data-w...

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