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California's new tire efficiency rules could save drivers $1B a year

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Re: California's new tire efficiency rules could save drivers $1B a year

#191
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It absolutely has good aspects, no doubt, but nothing about this is unquestionable. It’s significantly grayer due to all kinds of second order effects, even if you really believe in the problem and want to solve it. Depends on how many more accidents worse-gripping tires cause that result in more totaled vehicles that require replacement and what people replace them with. Depends on how much faster people have to rep…

You have started out with the assumption that these higher efficiency tires are worse gripping. However, the article states that the manufacturer-supplied tires are generally more efficient (in order to get the milage numbers they advertise), and that it is the third-party replacements that are worse. So either the manufacturer-supplied originals are more dangerous than replacement tires, or your argument is missing…

> So either the manufacturer-supplied originals are more dangerous than replacement tires

There's 3 main components to tire performance: efficiency, grip and longevity. OEM tires optimize for the first. They can compromise on grip and longevity. Most often I've experienced is the latter. So yes, OEM tires are "worse" in some aspects as replacements.

Re: California's new tire efficiency rules could save drivers $1B a year

#192
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment perfectly encapsulates the American thought process (I’m coming from the universal healthcare discussion on the front page) You post numbers that this will save $1B in fuel. Tons of co2 equal to taking 400,000 cars off the road. Unquestionably good for society, immensely good for future generations, but you ridicule it because it doesn’t benefit YOU enough right now. This is why the US doesn’t have nice…

It absolutely has good aspects, no doubt, but nothing about this is unquestionable. It’s significantly grayer due to all kinds of second order effects, even if you really believe in the problem and want to solve it. Depends on how many more accidents worse-gripping tires cause that result in more totaled vehicles that require replacement and what people replace them with. Depends on how much faster people have to rep…

These are all valid questions

but:

> Depends on how many more accidents worse-gripping tires cause

The US has an unusually high number of road deaths: https://archive.cdc.gov/www_cdc_gov/media/releases/2016/p070... and a lot of them are preventable. 1% less traction (or what ever it might be) is unlikely to be as bad compared to drink driving or not using seatbelts.

Re: California's new tire efficiency rules could save drivers $1B a year

#193
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are part way there, gas stations are required to provide free air and a gauge to customers buying gas.

As a Scandinavian that sounds normal, and has been my entire life. In fact you don't need to buy gas to use the free air or water, it is just out in the open in a service cabinet or on the side of the building. (There is sometimes a sign that the water is only for cleaning your windows / mixing windshield fluid from concentrate, not for filling up RVs, and the flow is very slow.) I'm curious, do they actually check t…

Free air is very common these days. I don't think a purchase has ever been required for free air anywhere I've been. Occasionally you need to go in and get a free token since the air machine is still coin operated, but I've never been asked to prove a purchase.

Re: California's new tire efficiency rules could save drivers $1B a year

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Michelin CrossClimate2 tires are arguably the best traction tires, In their class, but not in general. They are all-season tires. They don't perform as well as winter tires in the winter, and they don't perform as well as summer tires in the summer. They're also a terribly mushy tire. They feel like you're floating around on the road and wallowing through the turns. This doesn't matter in the slightest to someo…

>They don't perform as well as winter tires in the winter, and A lot of people don't live in climates where winter tires are even sold; particularly California, Texas, Florida, three of the most populous states. Many people in those states aren't even aware "winter tires" are even a product category. That's like complaining the Walmart in Anchorage, Alaska doesn't carry SPF 50 sunscreen.

You left the "and" but left out the critical part of my quote: They're not as good as summer-only tires in the summer.

> A lot of people don't live in climates where winter tires are even sold

The CrossClimate 2 tire we're talking about is an all-weather tire with the 3-peak snow designator. If you're trying to call me out for talking about winter tires in comparison to a tire designed for winter weather, I think you don't understand what we're talking about.

> Many people in those states aren't even aware "winter tires" are even a product category

Again, the CrossClimate 2 is a tire with a winter designation. California also has a lot of snowy locations.

> That's like complaining the Walmart in Anchorage, Alaska doesn't carry SPF 50 sunscreen.

Not only do stores in Anchorage carry SPF 50, but you're going to need it in the summer. When the sun is out for 20 hours a day, it adds up.

Re: California's new tire efficiency rules could save drivers $1B a year

#195
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment perfectly encapsulates the American thought process (I’m coming from the universal healthcare discussion on the front page) You post numbers that this will save $1B in fuel. Tons of co2 equal to taking 400,000 cars off the road. Unquestionably good for society, immensely good for future generations, but you ridicule it because it doesn’t benefit YOU enough right now. This is why the US doesn’t have nice…

It absolutely has good aspects, no doubt, but nothing about this is unquestionable. It’s significantly grayer due to all kinds of second order effects, even if you really believe in the problem and want to solve it. Depends on how many more accidents worse-gripping tires cause that result in more totaled vehicles that require replacement and what people replace them with. Depends on how much faster people have to rep…

So you’re saying there are a million factors that could (and arguably should) be researched, documented and actions taken based on facts revealed.

You’re not wrong, but you’re arguing against yourself. The article is EXACTLY the kind of action that comes from research with the goal of improving the status quo, and you don’t like it.

So you actually don’t want any effort to improve things, you just want to poo poo any efforts.

Re: California's new tire efficiency rules could save drivers $1B a year

#197
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's even worse than that. Rain performance and rolling resistance are conflicting goals. A good rain tire will need more voids to channel the water, but adding a lot of voids increases rolling resistance. California is a large market. Tire manufacturers probably won't make many California-specific tires. They're going to try to adjust their tires to meet the California guidelines. The most populous areas of Californ…

This is what I always thought. But I have Pirelli Cinturato SF3 tires now. All season. Excellent stiffness and feel. Great handling in the wet. Virtually silent up to 80-90km/h and as efficient as the Michelin summer tires and more efficient than the continental winter tires I had. So apparently, design and compound can cater for a lot. Unfortunately, snow performance on my front drive car is worse than my XC90 has i…

Design and compound matters a lot, but it's still a tradeoff.

The easiest way to increase rolling resistance is to reduce the tread depth. Less deformation of the rubber leads to less rolling resistance.

So to improve rolling resistance, the designers can reduce tread depth and move to a harder compound, which trades off grip.

Modern tires are good, but everything is tradeoffs.

Re: California's new tire efficiency rules could save drivers $1B a year

#198
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It absolutely has good aspects, no doubt, but nothing about this is unquestionable. It’s significantly grayer due to all kinds of second order effects, even if you really believe in the problem and want to solve it. Depends on how many more accidents worse-gripping tires cause that result in more totaled vehicles that require replacement and what people replace them with. Depends on how much faster people have to rep…

You have started out with the assumption that these higher efficiency tires are worse gripping. However, the article states that the manufacturer-supplied tires are generally more efficient (in order to get the milage numbers they advertise), and that it is the third-party replacements that are worse. So either the manufacturer-supplied originals are more dangerous than replacement tires, or your argument is missing…

> You have started out with the assumption that these higher efficiency tires are worse gripping.

Generally speaking, with tires you are trading off wear, grip, efficiency, and cost, among other things (like off-road durability which is irrelevant here). When you make a tire roll more efficiently, it tends to make it perform worse at gripping the road in all sorts of conditions, especially adverse conditions like rain and snow. I am speaking in generalities because there are thousands of tires from dozens of manufacturers and this is not a law of physics, but it is generally true in practice. Tires today are worlds better than tires of 50 years ago but this is still true to a first approximation.

So yes, I am making that assumption.

> So either the manufacturer-supplied originals are more dangerous than replacement tires, or your argument is missing something.

The tires that come on your car from the factory are optimized for one thing and one thing only: for the OEM to sell you the car.

OEM tires are famously (infamously?) often worse in terms of wear and grip than the equivalent tire available aftermarket because they are cheaper to produce (bringing down sticker price), roll more efficiently (helping them hit EPA fuel economy numbers), and quieter on test drives. Having a cheaper tire that is quieter on test drives and hits EPA numbers that are competitive with comparable models helps sell the car.

Higher treadwear doesn't help the OEM sell the car because your test drive isn't long enough to drive the car for 60,000 miles let alone 600. Higher grip doesn't either, as average buyers won't notice tire grip on a 15 minute drive on dry pavement and enthusiasts will replace the tires anyway. With the exception of certain enthusiast vehicles, if running a cheaper tire from the factory gets the price of the car from $40,000 to $39,950, the OEM will do it, even if the buyer has to replace the tire 20,000 miles sooner and it doesn't grip as well on dry pavement or in rain or snow.

> The rest of your quasi-questions all would need to be evaluated to see if they are true or not... and one would hope that at least some of them were evaluated when creating the policy. You seem to be assuming they were not, without any real evidence one way or the other.

I'm not sure what makes my questions "quasi", I'm just having a friendly conversation about tires on the internet.

There's almost nothing in human history with a worse record of causing unintended consequences than government regulation, even well-intentioned (cookie banners?), so I think I say charitably with some basis in historical fact that governments have a spotty record when it comes to understanding and predicting the second-order effects of the regulations they make. I ask my questions with that understanding. And I say all this as someone who is broadly sympathetic to and often in favor of many government regulations that reduce CO2 emissions and make cars more efficient. I enjoy clean air as much as the next person.

Re: California's new tire efficiency rules could save drivers $1B a year

#199
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, Prop 65 specifically exempts coffee from the warning requirement.

I have seen that goofy warning in SBUX stores, for whatever it's worth haha (not on the coffee cup).

Kinda my problem with that label: you have no idea what's it about when you see that label. The spectrum of what got that label is so broad that it's not very useful IMO.

Coffee specifically used require Prop65 warning because it releases acrylamide during roasting process, but after a lenghty legal battle coffee got an exeption.

Re: California's new tire efficiency rules could save drivers $1B a year

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume you mean about buying less (taxed) gas. Never fear, California is also talking about shifting to a mileage baded road tax because EVs (which they heavily incentivized) saving money on gas can't go untaxed.

Gas tax has always been a proxy metric for mileage in order to implement usage based costs to help offset the many billions of dollars California spends maintaining roads every year. Gas as a proxy for mileage breaks down with widespread EV usage, so even though they are a benefit for many reasons with incentivizing, they still require expensive road upkeep so should not be immune from usage taxation.

Or, spitballing here, let the gas tax reprieve be the incentive and don't offer a rebate for EVs. Regardless, gas tax is a stupid way to pay for roads. Everyone uses roads, whether they drive on them or not.

And, they won't be repealing the gas tax. They'll be adding a mileage tax on top of the gas tax.

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