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Woman pulled over twice after Flock-linked software connected her to homicide

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Re: Woman pulled over twice after Flock-linked software connected her to homicide

#191

Post by jmward01 »

bad_haircut72 wrote: post #34
Someone1234 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same reason why so called "Swatting" is largely a non-issue outside the US: Police in the US are trained to respond to the hilt by default, and then lower their heavy-handed response later if they warrant it. Contrast that with most other countries, where police are trained to respond and only escalate based on the findings/as the situation unfolds. This training is supposedly for "officer safety." But being a police…

Devils advocate here but your argument is that they should change their safety policy because the job has great safety statistics? What if they change tactics and danger goes up?

This is a statistical question that can be checked by looking at other countries. The data is exceptionally clear that per-capita the US sees an order of magnitude more police killings than the majority of the world [1] [2] (side note, don't make Brazilian police mad) but I couldn't find an easy source for comparing per-capita police mortality rates due to violence. They are honestly pretty low in the US but the quick, un-cited, articles I found discussing it said the US rates were higher than most countries. This implies that not only do we kill more people with our policing tactics, but those tactics are leading to even higher policing deaths. So, loose loose. But, again, I don't have good sources for this. Everyone tracks police killings. Not many track police deaths because, I suspect, it isn't a dramatic number in reality.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_annual_...

[2] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/police-ki...

Re: Woman pulled over twice after Flock-linked software connected her to homicide

#192

Post by fedpost »

The system needs built in back pressure against these events. Not just "police accountability" but also a defined system were fuckups like this are expensive organizationally so that the organization has an incentive to prevent them. Something like if you're subject to detention that turns out to be unwarranted you automatically get cash straight out of the police budget. Same deal with having weapons pointed at you.

This also helps provide restitution to victims who would otherwise just be screwed out of their time and legal defense fees

Re: Woman pulled over twice after Flock-linked software connected her to homicide

#193

Post by aftbit »

andrewla wrote: post #174
aftbit wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should read Normal Accidents. "Human error" is an excuse. It isn't really actionable. Instead of trying to fix the "human error", you must design the system such that it does not permit life-threatening errors. Sometimes that means a tradeoff in terms of efficiency, cost, or something else. Often this tradeoff is not one that people in charge of the system are willing to make, unless they are forced to do so by a…

1. I for one do not want "Flock Safety" in the loop for this at all. Police departments can flag a license plate in the system; that's on them. Flock is just a tool for departments to communicate what would previously have been an APB and have better detection than relying on chance sightings. 2. The vehicle was correctly identified by Flock as being the one flagged, and verified by the local PD that it was the one t…

"But for" Flock Safety, this would never have happened. Similar to saying that Tesla is responsible for designing a safe AutoPilot even though there's still a driver in the loop who is responsible.

Re: Woman pulled over twice after Flock-linked software connected her to homicide

#194

Post by swingandamiss »

Tostino wrote: post #5

I just spoke at my county commission meeting this morning, against these cameras, as they're debating putting 50% more cameras up across the county. The original set went up without any news coverage or fanfare. https://www.youtube.com/live/1OmEmpL-7qY?t=720&is=z_mb9ZEVCs... Looks like I have two serious opponents to privacy on the commission to deal with, and the commissioner seems to at least want to end the contra…

How do you feel about people like me who own a home (multiple homes actually), have dozens of cameras around it, with license plate readers, and work with local police? As I enter retirement I plan on starting an open source style project where others can join a network of home owners that can upload video/data (with license plate number, bluetooth identifiers, etc) and have this publicly accessible and free. Cars have dashcams that we can integrate. Ring doorbells, etc. I made a fortune off of big tech at a relatively young age, now it's time to apply what I've learned toward my passion projects

Re: Woman pulled over twice after Flock-linked software connected her to homicide

#195

Post by convolvatron »

NyxWulf wrote: post #142
convolvatron wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's strictly not true. at least one person doesn't believe in absolute presidential power. a lot of us believe that the president should really be an administrative head, and very limited ability to effect policy directly at all.

People believe a lot of things, especially when the other side has power. The point is that people complain about how the power is used by the other side. When power switches sides, they don't roll that power back. They pretty much always leave it in place.

no one, including me, actually believes in democracy. its just an eternal fight between the libertarian and the authoritarian. pick your side and fight as you can. thanks for disabusing me of my illusions, you know me better than I know myself.

you can mock my beliefs, you can try to convince how misguided they are, but its really outside the minimum rules of discourse to tell me what I actually believe

Re: Woman pulled over twice after Flock-linked software connected her to homicide

#196

Post by cwillu »

stickfigure wrote: post #148
Someone1234 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same reason why so called "Swatting" is largely a non-issue outside the US: Police in the US are trained to respond to the hilt by default, and then lower their heavy-handed response later if they warrant it. Contrast that with most other countries, where police are trained to respond and only escalate based on the findings/as the situation unfolds. This training is supposedly for "officer safety." But being a police…

> But being a police officer in the US isn't even in the top-10 most dangerous fields You don't think that has something to do with the exact policies you are objecting to? They call them "high risk stops" for a reason.

You'd have a point if any other western country had police work in their top-10 most dangerous fields, but they don't.

Re: Woman pulled over twice after Flock-linked software connected her to homicide

#198

Post by qwerpy »

swingandamiss wrote: post #194
Tostino wrote: post #5

I just spoke at my county commission meeting this morning, against these cameras, as they're debating putting 50% more cameras up across the county. The original set went up without any news coverage or fanfare. https://www.youtube.com/live/1OmEmpL-7qY?t=720&is=z_mb9ZEVCs... Looks like I have two serious opponents to privacy on the commission to deal with, and the commissioner seems to at least want to end the contra…

How do you feel about people like me who own a home (multiple homes actually), have dozens of cameras around it, with license plate readers, and work with local police? As I enter retirement I plan on starting an open source style project where others can join a network of home owners that can upload video/data (with license plate number, bluetooth identifiers, etc) and have this publicly accessible and free. Cars ha…

I’d be happy to contribute to this effort, be it financial or technical or just uploading my video sources (home camera feeds and Teslas). I’m retired with young kids and community safety is a top priority for me. Some local police departments here (Orange County) would probably appreciate this as well.

I’ve always thought millions of camera-equipped cars on the road combined with AI/ML would be an excellent tool for catching criminals.

Re: Woman pulled over twice after Flock-linked software connected her to homicide

#199

Post by gopher_space »

lukan wrote: post #96
shimman wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No this is bad logic. Flock is absolutely responsible and they should not be releasing or selling products that are this poorly made. Saying that the responsibility is only on the user is extremely myopic. It's also dismissing the role Flock has in how they make and design their software. If they can't handle this maybe they should be disbanded as a company or nationalized for better public control.

"Flock is absolutely responsible and they should not be releasing or selling products that are this poorly made." I am not a fan of flock, nor police surveillance state, but what could they have done better here? "Milwaukee police later admitted the alert should have been cleared out of the system days earlier, but an employee simply forgot to remove it. " The system seemed to work as intended - that numberplate was…

> I am not a fan of flock, nor police surveillance state, but what could they have done better here?

We'd need to take a look at what they have access to and how they're ingesting that info. I'd start with caring greatly about false positives and not automating department onboarding.

Working with various counties I've seen situations where someone needs to tell you a specific table dump exists to get an accurate count because that's how they published deletions back in 1983. There are no standards and the people who created these systems are all dead.

> The problem was wrong data given to them by humans.

This is always a problem. It's never not a problem. The question is how Flock chooses to address the problem.

Re: Woman pulled over twice after Flock-linked software connected her to homicide

#200

Post by Xirdus »

convolvatron wrote: post #195
NyxWulf wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People believe a lot of things, especially when the other side has power. The point is that people complain about how the power is used by the other side. When power switches sides, they don't roll that power back. They pretty much always leave it in place.

no one, including me, actually believes in democracy. its just an eternal fight between the libertarian and the authoritarian. pick your side and fight as you can. thanks for disabusing me of my illusions, you know me better than I know myself. you can mock my beliefs, you can try to convince how misguided they are, but its really outside the minimum rules of discourse to tell me what I actually believe

Now I feel stupid for writing my comment, because complaining about your use of "no one" would make me a hypocrite.
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