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London Underground begins scanning passengers' faces

btp.police.uk

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Re: London Underground begins scanning passengers' faces

#191

Post by rozab »

windowliker wrote: post #74
_fw wrote: post #53

It’s a moot point. I’m saddened at the invasion of privacy and the intrusion on an individual’s civil liberties, but anonymous travel on the London Underground died when they made bank cards and contactless the primary way to get through the barriers. I’m not saying that “this doesn’t matter because it’s slightly worse than before”. I’m saying the frog has been boiling for a long time. I don’t want people being surpr…

Oyster is still anonymous, in the sense that no details are required to buy a card, and it can be topped up using cash. The cards can be returned or disposed of as necessary. But as you say, it knows your movements at least in so far as your entry and exit point in the system, with a timestamp, though you can use a separate card for each if you don't mind paying the full fare that gets charged when a journey is 'inco…

I think the point with those supermarket cameras is to influence behaviour, not to surveil, I doubt they are even recording. When I was a kid (maybe in a worse area than you) there were CRT TVs by entrances of supermarkets showing a live feed of you walking in. People behave differently when they feel they are being watched, it's why they have creepy CCTV posters with big eyes on them. Probably the same reason for evil eye charms too.

Re: London Underground begins scanning passengers' faces

#192

Post by chrisjj »

azalemeth wrote: post #172

I've often wondered what would happen if you took some near IR, eye safe, ultra bright LEDs and strobed them at 60 Hz from your headgear in an omnidirectional fashion, pointing away from your body and avoiding nearby floor reflections. You'd stick out like a sore thumb (which I wouldn't mind, as I'm not a criminal nor doing anything wrong!) but it would be enough to likely "opt out" of facial recognition via dint of…

You'd be charged under the Computer Misuse act. /i

Re: London Underground begins scanning passengers' faces

#193

Post by chrisjj »

Traster wrote: post #13

I really don't understand why they do trials for this. What would be the failure case for the trial? "We carried out the trial for 6 weeks over X period of time, we arrested Y people, at that rate we've decided this is not compatible with modern liberal democracy, we would've traded a free society for Y+2 arrests over X period but we just didn't quite get there"? As suggested by other people - this is just going to b…

> What would be the failure case for the trial?

Every passenger taking the "nope" lane.

Re: London Underground begins scanning passengers' faces

#194

Post by nervai »

gambiting wrote: post #185
_fw wrote: post #53

It’s a moot point. I’m saddened at the invasion of privacy and the intrusion on an individual’s civil liberties, but anonymous travel on the London Underground died when they made bank cards and contactless the primary way to get through the barriers. I’m not saying that “this doesn’t matter because it’s slightly worse than before”. I’m saying the frog has been boiling for a long time. I don’t want people being surpr…

And the thing that absolutely fucks me off about all of this, is that we don't even get a lawful society in exchange for all of this. On one hand, there's no privacy anywhere. On the other - have your car stolen or a bike? House broken into? Phone snatched out of your hands? Good luck getting anyone to care about this in the slightest. You'd think with all the surveillance tech we'd be living in a nightmare panoptico…

Well, this about protecting the state from people that threaten it or its policies. I don't think it ever was about making us live in a safer city.

Snatched your phone? Sorry mate. But some old lady better not be walking around with a tshirt that says "I support Palestine Action".

Re: London Underground begins scanning passengers' faces

#195

Post by chrisjj »

kotaKat wrote: post #171
Traster wrote: post #13

I really don't understand why they do trials for this. What would be the failure case for the trial? "We carried out the trial for 6 weeks over X period of time, we arrested Y people, at that rate we've decided this is not compatible with modern liberal democracy, we would've traded a free society for Y+2 arrests over X period but we just didn't quite get there"? As suggested by other people - this is just going to b…

Is it to ID protestors, or to ID overstayers/other immigrant offenses? Home Office just parked up outside the station waiting for every overstayer to flag instead of just questioning people on walkups?

Or fare dodgers. Of which there are many thanks to the chocolate teapot of ticket security e.g. https://uk.news.yahoo.com/tfl-fare-dodger-caught-using-08360...

Re: London Underground begins scanning passengers' faces

#196

Post by ibejoeb »

tim333 wrote: post #178
ExoticPearTree wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting political here a bit, but: > We have had generations of terror threats to and attacks on our railway system, trains, railway stations. (And the most long-term and persistent of those threats was Irish republican terrorism bankrolled by Americans, for that matter) Did it ever cross Britain's mind that the whole IRA debacle is of its own doing? Can't you just leave Ireland for good and let them be?

They couldn't because the majority in the north wanted to be part on the UK, and democracy.

No matter what position one might take, for context, that's less than 1/4th.

Re: London Underground begins scanning passengers' faces

#197

Post by windowliker »

rozab wrote: post #191
windowliker wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oyster is still anonymous, in the sense that no details are required to buy a card, and it can be topped up using cash. The cards can be returned or disposed of as necessary. But as you say, it knows your movements at least in so far as your entry and exit point in the system, with a timestamp, though you can use a separate card for each if you don't mind paying the full fare that gets charged when a journey is 'inco…

I think the point with those supermarket cameras is to influence behaviour, not to surveil, I doubt they are even recording. When I was a kid (maybe in a worse area than you) there were CRT TVs by entrances of supermarkets showing a live feed of you walking in. People behave differently when they feel they are being watched, it's why they have creepy CCTV posters with big eyes on them. Probably the same reason for ev…

Yes, this has been under consideration when thinking just how much raw footage would have to be stored for 4 or more self-checkout cameras for every shop. Probably multiple terabytes per day, per chain, just for London. There is also the classic 'plastic camera with blinking LED' CCTV installation, intended to deter theft in a more lo-fi manner.

As an aside, the artist John Baldessari made an installation in the Tate Modern where you were filmed walking into a room and the image was projected on the wall, but with about a 10 second delay, so that the feedback loop between seeing yourself 'on screen' and being able to influence it was completely broken. It was quite interesting to experience.

Re: London Underground begins scanning passengers' faces

#198

Post by mosura »

tpholland wrote: post #181
hn_submit wrote: post #147

Britain is the original Orwellian society!! They even practice DoubleSpeak and DoubleThink in Blighty, especially in government and parliamentary circles.

It will be fine. Most Brits are comfortable with the poor quality of Orwell commentary from over the pond. American Orwell fans mostly don't even read his key novels like Keep the Aspadistra Flying, just his juvenile science fiction stuff.

The odd thing is Americans seem to take Aldous Huxley enormously more seriously than the Brits do, and they may be right in doing so.

Re: London Underground begins scanning passengers' faces

#199

Post by snozolli »

constantius wrote: post #114
danw1979 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m in Portugal with kids right now and I can not think of a country where dashcams would be more useful. The standard of driving and adherence to the law of the roads is some of the worst I’ve encountered in Europe. I haven’t let go of my 9yo’s hand since we arrived in Porto a few days ago. Speeding is chronic and nobody gives a shit for the safety of you or your children here.

You are in a new country and feel that your kid needs protection, which is perfectly human, but does mean that your opinion is a bit biased. As sibling comments mention, countries exist with many cameras, public or private, where driving feels worse. I didn't look at road deaths, but I'd be surprised if Portugal is among the leading countries on this. Equally, if you take a bit of distance, you can realise that Portu…

2024 stats, road accident fatalities, per million inhabitants:

Portugal: 58 Romania (highest in EU): 78 EU overall: 44 Sweden (lowest in EU): 20

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...

So, depending on where OP is from, Portugal could seem a bit more dangerous or wildly more dangerous than their home county.

Re: London Underground begins scanning passengers' faces

#200

Post by basisword »

spacebanana7 wrote: post #5

“Our deployments are intelligence-led and focused on identifying people wanted by the police or courts, including those suspected of serious offences and those who may be breaching bail conditions or court orders” This is crazy. Could easily be used to track protesters who went to the an event the police didn’t like.

>> Could easily be used to track protesters who went to the an event the police didn’t like.

They've already used facial recognition at protests.

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