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LLM Usage in Debian: Three Proposals

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191–200 of 228 posts

Re: LLM Usage in Debian: Three Proposals

#191

> A LLM (...) merely produces syntactically likely combinations of the training data While doesn't matter much in the rest of the policy, this is a common misconception among AI skeptics. It is not the case for a long time (since RL is used heavily in the training) and a LLM may go beyond its training data.

The natural next argument that I see a lot is "well it's still all probabilistic", which is technically true. However, don't the atoms that make up the cells that make up a human move around and interact based on probabilities? Saying a LLM is all just based on probabilities is pretty meaningless, even if it is true, since everything else is just based on probabilities too. What matters is the massive amount of machi…

That argument is mostly used against the misconception of AI-stans that LLMs are compilers, English is a programming language, and that prompting is a programing. There are many reasons for why that is false, and LLMs being stochastic is one of the more obvious reasons.

But there are more probabilistic elements about LLMs. Inference is by default deterministic for any given input and weights, however it is made stochastic algorithmically, when the model chooses the second or third likeliest outcome with some probability. Training is stochastic, the adjustment of the weights is probabilistic, etc. etc.

You seem to make the fact that our brains are also probabilistic as some sort of a gotcha. However that has never been in dispute. Neurons fire with certain probability, this has been known since the advent of neuroscience. However this is why computers are preferred for certain tasks over human brains. When you run a program you can be certain it behaves in a certain way given a particular input and parameters.

Re: LLM Usage in Debian: Three Proposals

#192

A lot of people pointing out that Proposal A is untenable/ at philosophical odds with the widespread upstream LLM usage, etc. etc. I think that's an unfortunate framing & I think A would be the best option for the opposite reasons. If they go with Proposal A, people will absolutely use AI tooling to contribute to Debian. This might be in bad faith (unlikely but possible), but it will also be done in good faith throug…

The wording of "written with ai tools" implies generation, as do all the concerns about copyright etc. it would be beyond insane to attempt to ban asking a chat bot or an agent questions to navigate or understand a codebase, not in the least because that is completely unenforceable

Re: LLM Usage in Debian: Three Proposals

#194
post #190
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't the LLM still output the next most probable token (modulus heat/desired variation) according to its model? Training shifts the probability - but doesn't change the fact that the output is a sampling based on input and the model?

So do humans more or less? The only counterpoints I've heard are religious or unmeasured quantum brain something.

I think there are quite fundamental differences to the LLM model equivalent to an adult human mind and current LLMs (even accepting an LLM can model a human brain, which I don't think is a given - but I also don't think it's impossible).

The details matter (training set, full context). I doubt our current LLMs knows what smelling cut grass on a wet morning feels like, or how the stomach flutters on a first kiss - even if they have "read" tens to hundreds of attempts at describing such things.

You're essentially suggesting we play Turing's Guessing Game; if your LLM can guess my response to any prompt - then it can be said to have modeled how I would reply to those prompts. Expand the prompts far enough, and you could reasonably argue the LLM models me.

Re: LLM Usage in Debian: Three Proposals

#195
post #119
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't the LLM still output the next most probable token (modulus heat/desired variation) according to its model? Training shifts the probability - but doesn't change the fact that the output is a sampling based on input and the model?

The combination of the most probable tokens doesn't necessarily have to be in the training set, thus creating something completely novel.

If you shuffle a deck of cards, you likely have a novel sequence of cards. I'm not sure how that is relevant?

Re: LLM Usage in Debian: Three Proposals

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The natural next argument that I see a lot is "well it's still all probabilistic", which is technically true. However, don't the atoms that make up the cells that make up a human move around and interact based on probabilities? Saying a LLM is all just based on probabilities is pretty meaningless, even if it is true, since everything else is just based on probabilities too. What matters is the massive amount of machi…

That argument is mostly used against the misconception of AI-stans that LLMs are compilers, English is a programming language, and that prompting is a programing. There are many reasons for why that is false, and LLMs being stochastic is one of the more obvious reasons. But there are more probabilistic elements about LLMs. Inference is by default deterministic for any given input and weights, however it is made stoch…

The "gotcha" here, if you want to call it that, is that the picking the next token based on probabilities (either in training or in the sampler) is not an argument that LLMs are inherently flawed, especially when one reduces a LLM to "it just picks a token based on a probability" as you could apply that same description to a human.

Re: LLM Usage in Debian: Three Proposals

#197
post #116

> A LLM (...) merely produces syntactically likely combinations of the training data While doesn't matter much in the rest of the policy, this is a common misconception among AI skeptics. It is not the case for a long time (since RL is used heavily in the training) and a LLM may go beyond its training data.

Doesn't the LLM still output the next most probable token (modulus heat/desired variation) according to its model? Training shifts the probability - but doesn't change the fact that the output is a sampling based on input and the model?

It’s not sampling anything though. At each inference step the fundamental output of the process can be interpreted as a probability for each possible token how likely it is. Sampling would imply otherwise but the probabilities are the output.

Re: LLM Usage in Debian: Three Proposals

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument is mostly used against the misconception of AI-stans that LLMs are compilers, English is a programming language, and that prompting is a programing. There are many reasons for why that is false, and LLMs being stochastic is one of the more obvious reasons. But there are more probabilistic elements about LLMs. Inference is by default deterministic for any given input and weights, however it is made stoch…

The "gotcha" here, if you want to call it that, is that the picking the next token based on probabilities (either in training or in the sampler) is not an argument that LLMs are inherently flawed, especially when one reduces a LLM to "it just picks a token based on a probability" as you could apply that same description to a human.

Like I said, usually this is used to debunk false claims about LLMs being compilers. I personally think there are better arguments to be made to debunk that, but the probabilistic nature of LLMs is an obvious one, so it is not unsurprising that it is also popular.

I don‘t think I have ever seen anybody make a claim that LLMs are a bad (or otherwise limited) technology because of the probabilistic nature of it. Plenty of excellent algorithms (including other machine learning algorithms) are probabilistic and work excellently for what they are meant to do. Problems arise when the algorithm is used for something more, and that is the case against LLMs. It is a next token prediction algorithm that people are using to write software. If they treat it as a compiler it will be lacking, and LLMs being non-deterministic is one of many reasons for why LLMs are bad compilers (or more accurately; are in fact not compilers).

And for that matter, neither are humans compilers. If you find an AI-hater who says “humans are good compilers” then I will agree with you that that person is wrong.

Re: LLM Usage in Debian: Three Proposals

#199
post #194
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So do humans more or less? The only counterpoints I've heard are religious or unmeasured quantum brain something.

I think there are quite fundamental differences to the LLM model equivalent to an adult human mind and current LLMs (even accepting an LLM can model a human brain, which I don't think is a given - but I also don't think it's impossible). The details matter (training set, full context). I doubt our current LLMs knows what smelling cut grass on a wet morning feels like, or how the stomach flutters on a first kiss - eve…

>The details matter (training set, full context).

But you said:

>Training shifts the probability - but doesn't change the fact that the output is a sampling based on input and the model?

So which is it?

>You're essentially suggesting we play Turing's Guessing Game; if your LLM can guess my response to any prompt - then it can be said to have modeled how I would reply to those prompts. Expand the prompts far enough, and you could reasonably argue the LLM models me.

I'm merely noting that your argument that "training+input=>output is the problem" applies to humans. There's other arguments for and against LLMs however I'm simply pointing out that your argument isn't a good one.

Re: LLM Usage in Debian: Three Proposals

#200
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, like the Jacobian counterexample.

That LLM was attached to a Python and MATLAB evaluator. It generated plausible things to feed into a real computer.

Weird take as a lot of things humans invent and test are done in similar ways.
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