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Mercedes‑Benz starts large‑scale production of electric axial flux motor

media.mercedes-benz.com

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Re: Mercedes‑Benz starts large‑scale production of electric axial flux motor

#191

Post by pbmonster »

jcgrillo wrote: post #176
JSR_FDED wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The new season of Formula One feels (unfortunately) like Formula E!

It would be awesome if they would implement a crude rule: no computers. You can use a computer to design the car--CAD/CAM/CAE are all fine--but no stored program computers are allowed in the race car. I think that would improve F1 tremendously.

Very funny idea. That basically means a carbureted gas engine, or a direct injection diesel with a mechanical governor and mechanically timed injection pumps - can't run a direct injection gas engine without a digital engine control unit, because the injection timings are much to precise to do mechanically.

So, basically '60s Formula 1. Might be fun to watch. We'd certainly see some crazy engine designs and a lot of re-fueling pit stops...

Re: Mercedes‑Benz starts large‑scale production of electric axial flux motor

#192

Post by jackmott42 »

There isn't going to be a lot of improvement in overall EV performance/capability from better motors. Existing, boring motors are already close to 100% efficient, already small, and already powerful.

Advancements here chip away at margins, its nice but nothing to get super excited about. Whereas a modest ~20% increase in energy density from batteries would be amazing. Every little bit we improve there unlocks new capabilities. Towing long distances, smaller affordable economy cars and sports cars, airplanes, etc.

Re: Mercedes‑Benz starts large‑scale production of electric axial flux motor

#193

Post by lazide »

DrBazza wrote: post #169
pjc50 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Chinese EV industry is actually lead by development of batteries , especially CATL. Along with the pack engineering, which is good old Mech.E stuff about heat transfer and physical strength. Secondarily power electronics; at that scale, you can't just pick a bigger transistor and call it a day. By comparison the motors seem to be a mostly solved problem, although I'm sure there's still some scope for power-to-wei…

And is development of batteries (and better magnetics) not just chemical engineering and material science? Motors might be a 'solved problem' - there might not be much innovation, Maxwell's laws aren't changing any time soon, but there will surely be a lot of incremental improvement - an early 1900s ICE is considerably worse than a 2000s ICE.

Helped along by the somewhat Wild West attitude towards worker safety and industrial regulation - high energy density batteries are hard to get right, and extremely dangerous if done wrong. During manufacturing in particular.

And only get cheap at scale.

Re: Mercedes‑Benz starts large‑scale production of electric axial flux motor

#194

Post by crote »

bluGill wrote: post #183
DrBazza wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And is development of batteries (and better magnetics) not just chemical engineering and material science? Motors might be a 'solved problem' - there might not be much innovation, Maxwell's laws aren't changing any time soon, but there will surely be a lot of incremental improvement - an early 1900s ICE is considerably worse than a 2000s ICE.

> n early 1900s ICE is considerably worse than a 2000s ICE. But how much worse is a early 1900s electric motor from a modern one? I can't find data, but I suspect the first electric motor from the 1830s is more efficient than a modern ICE (even if we assume the ICE is built for efficiency, screw emissions). There is some room for improvement, but there isn't much difference between our best motors and perfection (a c…

Early electric motors were awful, because there was no good way to control their speed.

For example, DC motors used in some late-1900s trains still had a giant variable resistor in series with their motor, burning away a huge chunk of the power as heat to force the motor to run at a lower speed during acceleration. AC motors weren't much better.

Electric motors only became truly efficient when variable-frequency drive became viable, which was in the 1980s due to semiconductor innovation.

Re: Mercedes‑Benz starts large‑scale production of electric axial flux motor

#195

Post by pbmonster »

pjc50 wrote: post #159
aitchnyu wrote: post #29

Tangential, how much regen can this system support? For example, can a car with 200kW propulsion have a 400kW regen (Tesla has upto 65) and are cost effective like friction brakes?

400kW regen is going to be a fairly alarming level of stopping for a normal vehicle. It's OK to leave emergencies to the friction brakes.

The idea is deleting the friction brakes entirely, saving costs, maintenance and weight.

And 400kW isn't really all that much for a sports car. I remember 911 ads from the '80s that boasted "brakes with more than 1000 horse power".

Re: Mercedes‑Benz starts large‑scale production of electric axial flux motor

#196

Post by creaturemachine »

eptcyka wrote: post #149
manarth wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've used left-foot-braking in my (ICE-powered) daily driver for years. Regenerative braking is very different to taking your foot off the accelerator in a conventional ICE car, it's much more powerful a stopping force than traditional engine-braking. I understand the rationale for moving the pedal to illustrate the amount of "braking" force. I'll admit I'm not exactly a typical driver though.

Why not move the gas pedal too, when using cruise control then?

They used to, but not by design. Back when throttles were still cabled I could feel the cruise control doing its thing by lightly resting on the pedal.

Re: Mercedes‑Benz starts large‑scale production of electric axial flux motor

#197

Post by benj111 »

creativeSlumber wrote: post #18
jorams wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit buried, but it does: > In contrast to conventional radial flux motors, the electromagnetic flux in an axial flux motor runs parallel to the axis of rotation. The key components are arranged in a disc‑shaped layout: two rotors sandwich the stator from the left and right. This design enables an especially compact motor architecture, high power and torque density, and new freedoms in drivetrain packaging. In…

> The three axial flux motors are integrated per axle I wonder why they need tree motors per axle.

To build on what others have said. Multiple motors per axle allow you to get rid of the diff, and you get torque vectoring basically for free.

Then there's braking. More driven wheels means more braking energy that can be recouped via regen. In traditionally rwd cars you lose out here because braking energy tends to be directed forward.

Also there's packaging. One large motor might impinge on the cabin.

Also you get benefits wrt mass production.

A smaller motor is easier to handle. Potentially could avoid the need for high voltage cables. Which eases repair.

Re: Mercedes‑Benz starts large‑scale production of electric axial flux motor

#198

Post by ardit33 »

tclancy wrote: post #126
mohsen1 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was curious how this thing works and asked Claude to visualize it -- mostly to see how good Fable is and I have to say, what it made was good enough for me to get a gist of it. Posted it here https://azimi.me/axial-flux-motor-explainer/

Every plausibly cool electric car innovation leads me to the same thought: “5-10 years from now, the restomod potential will be wild once these come down in cost.” For this, I am imagining retrofitting a Pontiac Fiero to reduce as much weight as possible and see if extended flight becomes possible.

Number 1 problem is battery weight though. Not electric motors.

I have a 84 w123 300D, and would love to add some more power to it. Lightweight hub motors would be great, but any decent size battery would be at least 200lbs+, which is hard to do on a old chasy.

Re: Mercedes‑Benz starts large‑scale production of electric axial flux motor

#199

Post by vincnetas »

JTbane wrote: post #180
csomar wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think humans develop expertise and brand names and get called out when they make mistakes and if they are too wrong, their reputation is damaged. This doesn’t seem to apply to AI for some reason. It keeps generating incorrect results after incorrect results, yet people continue to trust its output. I don’t know what to make of this.

I've starting going back to books, either at the library or e-books. Librarians are very good at telling you if nonfiction is biased, outdated, or incorrect.

wait until AI starts publishing printed books :)

https://www.amazon.com/stores/Dave-Gary/author/B0BY6Z6HP8/al...

Re: Mercedes‑Benz starts large‑scale production of electric axial flux motor

#200

Post by crote »

throwaway20222 wrote: post #107
picofarad wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> develop and iterate leading electric vehicles so fast. How do you know this for a fact? Chinese press releases? You've driven one? Some auto blogger drove one? After world war 2 Gorbachev or whoever visited the United States and during that trio visited a supermarket. He thought it was a facade, possibly, put on just for him, there's no way Americans are this prosperous (or whatever, this good at agriculture, farm…

Listening to the heads of the American and European car companies say the same and driving in them in china. I know that is different than personally disassembling one and reviewing it, but I am not sure the incentive for the other companies to say they have inferior products, unless it was a play for subsidies or deregulation of some form. Personally I feel that the rest of the world continues to dramatically under…

It's because the West still views Chinese people as dumb laborers: just a bunch of cheap bodies who can do nothing more than screwing together our brilliant inventions.

China creates something of equal quality as a Western company? It must've been IP theft! China competes on price? It must be state subsidies! China creates something innovative? Don't use it - it'll send your data back to the CCP! Or just pretend it doesn't exist.

In reality Chinese people aren't idiots. We've spent a couple of decades giving away all of our manufacturing knowledge for a few cents of shareholder value, so it is not exactly surprising that they now possess that knowledge - and are able to build upon it. China is dealing with huge demographic changes, so obviously they've been pushing for automation, so it shouldn't be a surprise that those factories are now rapidly automating. Which we could've done in the West, but outsourcing it to cheap Chinese labor was cheaper in the short term.

For every genius in the West there are ten geniuses in China, and with their top-down economic policy they are able to apply it where it truly matters.

We created our own worst enemy, and are now crying foul. If we don't get rid of our outdated racist biases soon and start treating China like the successful superpower that it is, we're going to get completely steamrolled in the next few decades.

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