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New method turns ocean water into drinking water, without waste

rochester.edu

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Re: New method turns ocean water into drinking water, without waste

#191
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ships wouldn't need a long submerged pipe. It'd just need a small hole like a bilge drain or maybe a live well on a fishing boat. Just let the boat cruise around slowly draining back into the ocean. As for surface life, I'm no oceanographer, but is that really the most vulnerable place? The surface is where fresh water rain meets the ocean, so that would dilute the salinity during storms. However, there's nothing to…

I think your sense of scale is off. 90% of sea life is on the surface. 0.029% of ocean water is replenished from rainfall annually. Desalination concentrates are absolutely toxic to life. The current daily volume of brine discharge would require more than half the tankers in the world to be filled and discharged every single day. They would of course not last long with such a routine.

Is that a total for all of the oceans? I understand that as a whole, rainfall is literally but a drop in the ocean. However, confined just to the local area where the rain is falling, the area’s salinity has to change. Just like adding the the desalinated brine is a minuscule amount compared to the whole ocean, it has large effect locally.

Regardless, it is totally possible to reintroduce the brine back to the ocean in a way to not be a shock to the local area. We have just chosen to make it harder on ourselves for some illogical reason.

Re: New method turns ocean water into drinking water, without waste

#192
post #4

There is a fundamental minimum amount of energy needed to desalinate: you can't take less energy to do it,than you could gain back (from osmotic pressure) if you allowed the desalinated water to expand a cylinder containing the residual brine. This is large. This paper is a thermal method, so it doesn't have an electricity input, but to justify their efficiency claim, they should really compare against what you could…

ScholarlyArticle: "Extreme salt-resisting multistage solar distillation with thermohaline convection" (2023) https://www.cell.com/joule/fulltext/S2542-4351(23)00360-4 .. https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=7551078272963689346...

"Desalination system could produce freshwater that is cheaper than tap water" (2023) https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/1002811

ScholarlyArticle: "Highly efficient and salt rejecting solar evaporation via a wick-free confined water layer" (2022) https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-28457-8

"Solar-powered system offers a route to inexpensive desalination" (2022) https://news.mit.edu/2022/solar-desalination-system-inexpens...

Re: New method turns ocean water into drinking water, without waste

#193
post #63

Can we please ban university press releases

why

I'll bite, I'll bite. But first ...

@GP: Instead of a plain complain, it's better to get an interesting discussion to write an explanation of why the post makes no sense, or instead find the good debunking comments and upvote them (there are two or three good comments near the top now).

I try to be that guy (personal hall of shame https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... ) but life is too short and I have other things to do IRL.

Also, it's not my area. It's close enough to have a good guess, but in this case for me it's better to let someone else give an accurate reply.

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Back to this post:

It obviously makes no sense. You have salt water, you extract the water, you have to get rid of the salt. Why waste time reading the details? [There are some interesting technical ideas about new surfaces, more on this later.] Reading the details their brilliant idea is to make salt cubes and sell them. So there is no waste!

When you get rid of the salt using brine, it's easier to transport and dilute the liquid. With solid salt you must scrape it form your high tech surface (without scratching it?!) and now the solid salt is difficult to transport. Also, to sell it you must purify it because it will include nasty things like crabs legs and sea smell.

Once you extracted the 99% of the water, it's difficult to extract the other 1% of the water because it's saturated solution with a low osmotic pressure, vapor pressure and a high boiling temperature. Also, water inside the block of salt is difficult to extract, and you must crush the small blocks.

Salt production is done in big salt lakes areas, where energy is "free". I like to consider it like a huge natural solar panel. You get heat for "free" and dry wind for "free". You must pay for them in an industrial facility. Also, the normal process still requires a lot of manual labor of guys/gals with [mechanical] shovels to makes piles of salt, wait, turn it a few times, wait, turn it a few times, wait, ... and you now have a nasty salt that you still have to purify to be able to sell it.

So they will get salt that is too expensive to sell, and too much of it to flood the market, and if you put it in the garbage can it will be classified as [industrial] waste.

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The technical part looks interesting, but it's on the bottom of an unrealistic title and first paragraph. The interesting part is about the new surface with nano details and titanium oxide that absorbs Lithium. It sound interesting and they published it so there is some validation of the claim, but after the nonsensical first claims I'd want to take a look at the feasibility details.

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>> Can we please ban university press releases

> Why?

I work in an university and I expect technical accuracy from the press department of an university. We want people to give us money in exchange of doing real and interesting things. We want people to trust the medical doctors when they give health advice, or a lot of other specialist about other public policies.

A lot of press release of the universities have a lot of exaggerations, burning the trust of the people. Before opening one here, I like to guess what is the real result and what is the bullshit part. I think that a complete ban of university press release here is too much, but I understand why the GP is annoyed.

Re: New method turns ocean water into drinking water, without waste

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A more apt comparison than you realize. Most of the carbon we spew into the atmosphere came from the air. Ancient plants took it in via respiration.

That still doesn't make it a good comparison. The salt emitted by desalination plants is already in the sea now, it's not salt that went somewhere else.

And the water we take out eventually goes back.

Re: New method turns ocean water into drinking water, without waste

#195

So crazy question: take a dehumidifier, attach some solar panels, and deploy at scale for non-potable water suitable for crop irrigation anywhere that isn't a desert. Does it work? And if not, why?

The short answer is all those problems have already been solved. Israel desalinates 75-85% of its drinking water. The problem is political and economic dysfunction. California for example could be doing widespread desalination with nuclear power and technology from the 1970s. They could also greatly expand reservoirs and waterways, but don’t do it. Very similar to Rome in the 400s, when people were using aqueducts bu…

Nuclear is very expensive per MWh and thus per litre of water generated

Solar on the other hand is very cheap, and you don't need to desalinate 24/7 -- just do it when power is cheapest (which is during the sunny times if you have large amounts of solar, during windy if you have large amounts of wind, etc)

Re: New method turns ocean water into drinking water, without waste

#196
post #26

They are talking about lithium recovery, but there is a less exotic byproduct I'm interested in. One tonne (≈ 1 m^3) of seawater contains about 1.3 kilograms of magnesium, equivalent to about 4 kg of magnesite ore. Typical desal prices are on the order of $1 per tonne. Magnesite ore goes for about $100 per tonne, so the crude magnesium in a tonne of seawater is worth about $0.40, which could account for a substantial…

Calcining Mg(OH)₂ -which is what you find in seawater - converts the soft compound into magnesium oxide, a valuable mineral commonly used in refractories, catalysts, and ceramics.The Chemical Equation: \(Mg(OH)_2 \xrightarrow{\Delta} MgO + H_2O\)Temperature Requirements: You need to heat the magnesium hydroxide to a temperature range between 500°C and 900°C. Heating at the lower end (around 500°C) yields a highly rea…

> : \(Mg(OH)_2 \xrightarrow{\Delta} MgO + H_2O\)T

At least read what you're pasting

Re: New method turns ocean water into drinking water, without waste

#197
post #4

There is a fundamental minimum amount of energy needed to desalinate: you can't take less energy to do it,than you could gain back (from osmotic pressure) if you allowed the desalinated water to expand a cylinder containing the residual brine. This is large. This paper is a thermal method, so it doesn't have an electricity input, but to justify their efficiency claim, they should really compare against what you could…

I always thought that if separating water and salt were easy, our bodies would have evolved to do it so that we'd be able to drink sea water and be fine. It must have been so expensive that searching for fresh water was worth it or there were plenty of fresh water that it was never a evolutionary pressure. Evolving kidneys capable of concentrating urine beyond 3 something percent concentration (sea water) perhaps required a massive restructuring of our internal organs and a huge constant energy expenditure, so we kept seeking fresh water.

ps. I have no clue what I'm talking about

Re: New method turns ocean water into drinking water, without waste

#198
post #44
post #4

There is a fundamental minimum amount of energy needed to desalinate: you can't take less energy to do it,than you could gain back (from osmotic pressure) if you allowed the desalinated water to expand a cylinder containing the residual brine. This is large. This paper is a thermal method, so it doesn't have an electricity input, but to justify their efficiency claim, they should really compare against what you could…

Brine is very easy to dispose of: you just pump it back to where it came from. Solid crystalline salt, on the other hand, is a hassle.

Oh no, the hassle of managing the raw input for several key industrial processes that is created for free as a side product of MAKING WATER DRINKABLE WITH FREE ENERGY FROM THE SUN is TOO MUCH OF A PROBLEM! Especially considering we could instead murder millions of fish - which we then can’t eat- in the process! This entire technology is doomed!

Come on guys please at least attempt to think what you’re about to type, please, I beg you.

Re: New method turns ocean water into drinking water, without waste

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the very least I would UV disinfect anything coming from the ground and absolutely make use of a 20 micron sediment filter if only to address cognitive load: Another place, another time, coliform bacteria from the well. Super fun(not).

I vacillate between trusting my well and trusting my RO (10,5,1 micron filters, plus the membrane). But it isn't healthy to drink RO all the time and I don't wanna mess with remineralization. My well is 100' and 13 years old.

For me I'd do a sediment filter and a charcoal filter and call it good. Send a sample out for analysis a few times a year.
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