Live data from Hacker News

The Last Technical Interview

steve-yegge.medium.com

191–200 of 291 posts

Re: The Last Technical Interview

#191

I don't know if it's the same in the US, but every job in Australia generally comes with a 3-6 month probationary period where employment can be terminated for basically any (non-protected) reason with little notice. I've observed that the option to do so is seldom used - probably because there is not usually much incentives for managers to decrease their number of reports unless there's serious problems. Most places…

That probation period never ends in the us. You can be fired at any time for nearly any reason.

Or no reason.

Re: The Last Technical Interview

#192

> There is a material difference between the signal from an internship (~7 weeks of usable work time after ramp-up) vs a co-op (5 months actually working) And that's why the trades require you to perform years of work as an apprentice before you're ever qualified to pass an exam to become a journeyman. Not only is it like a years long internship, but you're paired with someone who has already passed a high bar. You'r…

> Engineering should not be subjective.

I think there’s a lot of ways to do engineering right. It’s very subjective in many ways. Every project has multiple possible paths to success.

Re: The Last Technical Interview

#193

The "provisional employment" idea sounds good at first, until you think about how it would actually work in practice. You have 100 applicants for 1 position. Which one do you provisionally hire? Ah of course, we have to do a traditional interview loop to evaluate 10 candidates before we can pick one. So you do the traditional interview loop, and then you have 6 months of provisional employment. You haven't replaced a…

> You have 100 applicants for 1 position. Which one do you provisionally hire?

Sample size of 100 seems like overkill for finding a 6-month contract employee.

How about starting with a sample size of 1:

Sort the applicants (ether randomly or by criteria of your choice, pre-filtering as desired) and hire the first one who meets the minimum qualifications, based on a streamlined interview process of your choice.

You could experiment with a larger sample size if desired (perhaps large enough that you expect to find at least one qualified candidate.)

Re: The Last Technical Interview

#194
post #13

The gold standard in hiring qualification is work-sample testing. It works fine. You do not need to "make hiring a profit center" or "provisionally hire" or do internships. Work samples done correctly demand less time from candidates than interviews and scale better than interviews. They are standardizable and iterable. What I feel like I'm reading here is someone who has been poisoned by FAANG hiring practices --- a…

I'm a little bit more on the fence with the work sample interviews having designed them and also interviewed through them. I've also done my fair share of "traditional" tech interviews, all at startups, never FAANG. As an interviewer, I much prefer the signals generated through a work-sample interview. I'm much more confident in the hiring recommendation than I get from a 1 hour zoom session. However, if I look at te…

Going through the interview process now for the first time in half a decade, and while I already would have said five years ago that I preferred work samples, that opinion is only growing stronger as I go through the process again.

Leetcode style interviews feel so stupid and divorced from the reality of the job, especially the “one weird trick” kind where you’re expected to discern the best possible solution to a problem on the spot and in a pressurized situation.

The reality of the job is usually that when you are under time pressure, a suboptimal solution that does the job is fine (to be fixed later), while if you’re working on something you know is important (hot loop code, core data structures) you have time to think about it and get it right. A leetcode interview doesn’t select for either of those things: it selects for people who have time to grind leetcode problems.

On the other hand, a work sample is realistic: a timeboxed task that you can approach in a familiar environment, without an interviewer breathing down your neck, expecting you to think out loud, railroading you to their preferred solution, etc.

As an interviewer, I always pushed for either work samples, which I quite liked, or coding interviews where we very explicitly said that we just want a working solution, which we could then talk through and look for potential improvements. We also explicitly viewed the coding interviews as being low signal, and tried to make the bar for passing low, so we could get candidates to higher signal conversations.

I do think the work sample route is a little more difficult in the LLM era, in that you are more likely to get a decent performance from a candidate who doesn’t actually know the domain, but a subsequent discussion asking them to explain their approach seems like it would be enough to ferret that out.

Re: The Last Technical Interview

#195
post #13

The gold standard in hiring qualification is work-sample testing. It works fine. You do not need to "make hiring a profit center" or "provisionally hire" or do internships. Work samples done correctly demand less time from candidates than interviews and scale better than interviews. They are standardizable and iterable. What I feel like I'm reading here is someone who has been poisoned by FAANG hiring practices --- a…

Ime take-homes was a good way to purge all the good candidates with options from your pipeline as they would simply not turn anything in and go with someone else. Maybe with AI and so many layoffs it’s better now I haven’t tried in last couple of years though i doubt it

Re: The Last Technical Interview

#196
post #13

The gold standard in hiring qualification is work-sample testing. It works fine. You do not need to "make hiring a profit center" or "provisionally hire" or do internships. Work samples done correctly demand less time from candidates than interviews and scale better than interviews. They are standardizable and iterable. What I feel like I'm reading here is someone who has been poisoned by FAANG hiring practices --- a…

The problem with work-sample testing (which is commonly administered as a take-home problem for the developer candidate to solve) is two-fold: a) it discriminates against people who cannot spare 4+ hours of focused time on evenings/weekends to work on the problem. People with multiple jobs, single parents, etc. b) in the age of AI it is no longer a reliable measure of someone's skill, for obvious reasons Unlike Yegge…

And coding interviews often bias against people who can’t spend days of time grinding on hackerrank or whatever to prepare for the interview. Provisional employment biases against people who currently have jobs.

There is no perfect interview process, so it’s important companies think about what they’re biasing for or against. A work sample gives a more realistic picture of someone’s ability than a coding interview, but less than provisional employment. But, it’s much easier for people to commit to finding the time for it than to spending 3-6 months in limbo.

Regarding AI and work samples, it seems like this problem is largely solved by having an in-depth conversation with the candidate about the assignment, no? They should be able to explain why they made the decisions they did, pros and cons of their approach, etc. If they can do that, and their solution is good, does it matter if it was LLM-assisted?

Re: The Last Technical Interview

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes! At some point, the author even complains about the (weaker) US law for employee on how it's a mess to fire somebody, but easy to let go from an internship. So much about stability that employees seek.

A mess to fire someone? Every state except Montana lets employers fire without giving a reason.

From the article:

> In the U.S. you generally can’t just up and fire someone, even if they are underperforming, even if it’s at-will employment, without risking a lawsuit and some sort of cash outlay. This is what makes hiring decisions so high-stakes.

I've been part of a few situations where someone had to be let go in the USA, and I can tell you it wasn't a trivial decision. There were legal aspects, sure, but there was also a personal aspect. As a boss said once "this is someone's life we're talking about here".

Re: The Last Technical Interview

#199
That discussion triggered a memory from a comment I made a long time ago here (2020, found it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24841235).

There is a way to make the campfire approach a little bit less utopian: California could pass a law that makes it legal to have a second temporary job. So that FAANG engineers for instance, would be allowed to campfire/interview at another company with legal protections. Put a bit of grease in the interview system is good for candidates.

Re: The Last Technical Interview

#200

The paradox that strikes me is that "hiring is broken" yet these companies are beyond successful. So there's still yet another layer of something in between observing that employees are capable / incapable, and the company successful / unsuccessful.

Lots of humans. Lots of companies. Random chance.

Of course, its not that simple. Some companies probably are great at scouting. Yegge mentioned a few ways in the post. Good internship programs, acquihiring, etc.

Post reply on HN