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Waymo updates 3,800 robotaxis after they 'drive into standing water'

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Re: Waymo updates 3,800 robotaxis after they 'drive into standing water'

#191

Post by ndsipa_pomu »

Aaronstotle wrote: post #91
Animats wrote: post #2

That's a tough problem - distinguishing wet pavement from deep water. Humans make that mistake frequently. Autonomous vehicles should probably be equipped with a water sensor. (We did that in our DARPA Grand Challenge vehicle back in 2005). Then they can enter water very cautiously and see if it's too deep. This may make them too cautious about shallow puddles on roads, though.

This is also why they recommend not to use polarized while cycling, it can obscure slicks or water in certain sections. I still use mine but I know it's not as ideal as photo chromatic lenses.

I've never heard that. I tend to buy photo-chromatic sunglasses due to them changing quickly to clear when it's cloudy/dark or in a tunnel or, more accurately in the UK, they go dark for those few minutes of sunshine we get per year.

Re: Waymo updates 3,800 robotaxis after they 'drive into standing water'

#192

Post by bruckie »

justinclift wrote: post #178
reaperducer wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how electric cars fare with deep water. The ground clearance for my EV is 7 inches. The manual specifies it can handle 18 inches of water. I don't know if that's the point where water messes with the electronics, or a swift current would start to move it sideways.

> I don't know if that's the point where water messes with the electronics, or a swift current would start to move it sideways. Flotation might also be a possibility?

Less of a possibility than in a similar combustion vehicle, though, since EVs tend to be heavier.

Re: Waymo updates 3,800 robotaxis after they 'drive into standing water'

#193

Post by ndsipa_pomu »

cucumber3732842 wrote: post #97
eraGq wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any human can distinguish wet pavement from a flooded street. Some voluntarily drive into the flooded street. And that is the difference. In a Waymo you are a prisoner, in your own car you can turn around.

This is the naive "if you can't stop you're following too close" circular definition based take. Makes for good rightthink points on reddit and communities of similar quality membership but you're not actually gonna build anything useful thinking like that. In order to drive reasonably humans need to drive through water that is 6-12in deep on occasion. That's just how it is. Near me it's whenever the storm drain at t…

> This is the naive "if you can't stop you're following too close" circular definition based take

As opposed to the "don't ever allow for rare/unexpected events where following too close leads to a collision" stupidity based take.

Re: Waymo updates 3,800 robotaxis after they 'drive into standing water'

#194

Post by ndsipa_pomu »

robrain wrote: post #40

Article's current (possibly original), less ambiguous title: "Waymo recalls 3,800 robotaxis after glitch allowed some vehicles to ‘drive into standing water’" IOW 3,800 Waymo vehicles aren't currently sat spinning their wheels in water.

Is that because they're stuck in Atlanta?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/technology/robotics/empty-waymo-ro...

Re: Waymo updates 3,800 robotaxis after they 'drive into standing water'

#195

Post by esseph »

adrianmonk wrote: post #180
esseph wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going to move up and down with every bump and pothole

Have a rod that pivots in its center and has objects of equal mass at each end, like a balanced seesaw. But make one of the objects very low density (less than water) and other high density. Since the densities differ, water will cause the rod to rotate. But since the masses are the same, bumps will create no net torque around the pivot point and thus no rotation. ASCII art diagram: F------(x)------C (x): pivot point…

> Or just let the float sensor bounce. It's underwater when it stops bouncing and is continuously in the up position.

Road grime, break dust, grease, grit, etc will contaminate the shaft and make it stick, potentially telling you that youre:

A) Never in water

Or

B) Always in 2.5" of water because the sensor is stuck.

Re: Waymo updates 3,800 robotaxis after they 'drive into standing water'

#196

Post by cma »

nomel wrote: post #166
cma wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As soon as the car descends below what was mapped it should be able to know there is a discrepency. Satellite monitoring is also available for detecting extensive road work which they could use to invalidate and send out something to remap.

Sure, if you drive around slow enough so you can stop in time. Lets say coefficient of friction is around 0.5. That means you can drive around town at a brisk 12mph, if you need to stop within 10 feet (with 0ms reaction time).

People usually drive slow too through flooded sections. They don't have the advantage of any descent of the car diverging from HD maps, or any water level visually below HD map surface serving as an immediate warning.

Re: Waymo updates 3,800 robotaxis after they 'drive into standing water'

#197

Post by nomel »

cma wrote: post #196
nomel wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, if you drive around slow enough so you can stop in time. Lets say coefficient of friction is around 0.5. That means you can drive around town at a brisk 12mph, if you need to stop within 10 feet (with 0ms reaction time).

People usually drive slow too through flooded sections. They don't have the advantage of any descent of the car diverging from HD maps, or any water level visually below HD map surface serving as an immediate warning.

> drive slow too through flooded section

This first requires knowing you're in a flooded section. That's the gap here, is it not? My point is that you can't use descent AS a "flooded zone" detection because then your speed, by the harsh mistress of psychics, is very limited everywhere you go, flooded or not, because stopping distance has to be kept very short since just a few feet of overshoot, when your flood detection triggers, is the difference between ruined engine or not.

Maybe that's their fix, if a flat mirrored surface is detected, slow way down, because perceiving depth of muddy water before getting in it is hard.

Re: Waymo updates 3,800 robotaxis after they 'drive into standing water'

#198

Post by aitchnyu »

esseph wrote: post #195
adrianmonk wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have a rod that pivots in its center and has objects of equal mass at each end, like a balanced seesaw. But make one of the objects very low density (less than water) and other high density. Since the densities differ, water will cause the rod to rotate. But since the masses are the same, bumps will create no net torque around the pivot point and thus no rotation. ASCII art diagram: F------(x)------C (x): pivot point…

> Or just let the float sensor bounce. It's underwater when it stops bouncing and is continuously in the up position. Road grime, break dust, grease, grit, etc will contaminate the shaft and make it stick, potentially telling you that youre: A) Never in water Or B) Always in 2.5" of water because the sensor is stuck.

I surrender my speedometer ceremony for the wade sensor. Instead of a motor sweeping the speedometer from 0 to 200 on startup, put the motor to sweep the wade sensor.

Re: Waymo updates 3,800 robotaxis after they 'drive into standing water'

#199

Post by NetMageSCW »

phatfish wrote: post #111
tim333 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My dad went through one of those in England where it was a bit deep. The car had to have a new engine.

Make a mental note of the level of the air intake for the engine in your car, if the water doesn't make it that high you should be fine as long as you don't get stuck (no, i don't where it is on my car). The engine gets damaged when water gets into the piston chamber i think. Water compresses less than air so important things bend or crack if the engine is running too long with water in it. I wonder how electric cars…

All liquids are incompressible- water doesn’t compress at all.

Re: Waymo updates 3,800 robotaxis after they 'drive into standing water'

#200

Post by NetMageSCW »

xethos wrote: post #190
bombcar wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve literally watched my car (only car around) trigger the yellow heavy traffic warning (because I was driving slow to look for something). Yet thousands of cars doing 60 mph through a cornfield and over a river doesn’t trigger a “maybe a freeway was built here?”

Advertising slightly heavier traffic isn't the worst thing in the world. Telling hundreds of motorists "There's a navigable road here" when there isn't, is a bigger problem, for both Apple's PR team, and the motorists in question Verifying indepenantly is probably the reasonable response

Seems like that would be easy to do with some current satellite imagery?
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