Airport Security Is Killing Us • Hacker News Board

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#191

Post by DanBC » Wed, Nov 21, 2012, 1:59 AM UTC

Zimahl wrote: post #180

zanny wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being an invasive empire doesn't make people like you? What an interesting proposition. It might baffle a few dozen suits who run the military industrial complex, before they go back to laughing while wiping their bums with $100 bills of taxpayer money. Same way the pharmaceutical industry, for profit prison industry, and lumber industry (last one is debated plenty) will continue to shove money into politics to keep…

> lumber industry (last one is debated plenty) The lumber industry? You're seriously comparing Big Pharma and for-profit prison companies with the timber industry? I'm not sure if you are talking about America in the 2010s, but the timber industry is tanking. Maybe if you were talking about the 1970s I might peripherally agree. The timber industry is so bad right now that it is cheaper to buy 2x4s to burn in your fir…

The Lumber Cartel is an ancient Internet meme. (People against spam must be shills of the paper trade, paid for by the lumber industry.) It gets mentioned when you're talking about cartels just because.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#192

Post by settrans » Wed, Nov 21, 2012, 2:16 AM UTC

jackpirate wrote: post #186

enjo wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's such a bad argument. I do no such thing. However, the reality of my profession requires me to fly. So I "consent" only under considerable duress. The choice is literally "put food on the table" or submit to incredibly intrusive security. That's not consent, that's coercion.

The choice is literally "put food on the table" or submit to incredibly intrusive security. No it's not. You can quit and get a new job. If you can't immediately find a new job, you will be on unemployment and food stamps. You will literally still have food on the table. Edit: by quit I meant don't get on the plane, resulting in being fired

Where would you be eligible for unemployment after voluntarily quitting?

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#193

Post by krichman » Wed, Nov 21, 2012, 4:30 AM UTC

F_J_H wrote: post #108

The sad fact is, I think TSA type security is hear to stay, and won't lighten up very much, regardless of the facts that question its efficacy. Why? Picture this. Someone (likely a politician) crusades hard to have the TSA dismantled, and is successful. No matter how much better the system that replaces it is, there is always a chance that someone slips through and takes down a plane, and 300+ people are killed. In t…

The USA would need to somehow simultaneously remove sociopaths from office and remove voting privileges from idiots before they can have rational legislation in favor of the people.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#194

Post by Spooky23 » Wed, Nov 21, 2012, 4:37 AM UTC

blibble wrote: post #183

anigbrowl wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an Irish person, I disagree. The IRA had a very specific territorial objective: ending British rule in Northern Ireland. The Taliban are not articulating an alternative approach to Afghan nationalism, they're religious radicals that think it's OK to assassinate 12 year old girls, stone unmarried lovers to death, and behead their political opponents. When the freedoms you're fighting for consist exclusively of oppr…

no, instead the IRA were religious radicals that thought it was OK to place car bombs in Central London, Manchester, and countless other cities, murdering hundreds of innocent people going about their daily business. The Taliban have a clear military objective too: remove the infidels and their supporters from the country that was formerly theirs. quite how this is any different from the IRA, semantically or morally,…

The IRA weren't religious radicals, they were nationalists.

My grand-uncle was an IRA man starting in the 1920's, and probably supported them in some way into the 1980's. It is difficult to convey the depth of feeling that folks like my uncle felt. His father was imprisoned for writing things unfavorable to the British. His uncle was deported for sedition. His entire community was impoverished by onerous taxation and discrimination.

The Taliban want to embrace a fundamentalist vision of Islamic law and institute a theocratic government. Removing foreign influences is a rallying cry, but not the core objective -- they dominated the country well after the Soviet withdrawal, and were themselves a product of foreign intervention. (Ie. Pakistan)

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#195

Post by freehunter » Wed, Nov 21, 2012, 4:37 AM UTC

grecy wrote: post #135

freehunter wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America is one united federation of states. The federal government still exercises surprisingly little control over individual states, although that control is increasing over time. Most of the federal controls exist merely to regulate inter-state commerce to make sure there are no unfair practices where Michigan can enact laws to keep Indiana businesses from operating in their state. However, two neighboring states…

America is not unique in this regard, many other countries have vastly differing state laws too.

I'm not terribly familiar with states in different countries, but I wasn't trying to imply America is necessarily unique. What I was trying to get across is that, for all intents and purposes, each state in the union (read union as union of federated states) is semi-independent and can do almost anything they want outside of printing their own currency. Even that law comes with a stipulation that you can print your own currency but still have to accept US dollars as well.

The parent had asked if the US in particular was one country. In actually, it's not quite that simple. Similar reason why people refer to Canadian provinces by their provincial title in some circumstances. British Columbia is only incidentally related to Nunavut. At the same time, Washington state is only incidentally similar to Alabama.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#196

Post by krichman » Wed, Nov 21, 2012, 4:42 AM UTC

Domenic_S wrote: post #50

The TSA has the same problem car alarms or home security systems have: there's no way to prove how many events they've prevented.

Yep, imagine the horrors that would have fallen upon us if a terrist had gotten through with some nail clippers.

Many security experts think it is trivial to get weaponry past them. They aren't extensively trained, you know, they are cheap rental guards following a procedure.

So in fact I would say the TSA has stopped nothing, the only prevention has come from the FBI and CIA, locking the cockpit door, and putting air marshals on the plane.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#197

Post by Domenic_S » Wed, Nov 21, 2012, 4:52 AM UTC

krichman wrote: post #196

Domenic_S wrote: post #50

The TSA has the same problem car alarms or home security systems have: there's no way to prove how many events they've prevented.

Yep, imagine the horrors that would have fallen upon us if a terrist had gotten through with some nail clippers. Many security experts think it is trivial to get weaponry past them. They aren't extensively trained, you know, they are cheap rental guards following a procedure. So in fact I would say the TSA has stopped nothing, the only prevention has come from the FBI and CIA, locking the cockpit door, and putting ai…

> So in fact I would say

That's the point, right, that you aren't in a position to guess, and it's slimy position to be put in. It's the same way ADT can sell millions of home alarms every year - there's just no way to prove how many events a reactive system stops.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#198

Post by Spooky23 » Wed, Nov 21, 2012, 4:53 AM UTC

gsnedders wrote: post #58

I don't see why there isn't more interest in high speed rail in the US: New York and Boston/Washington DC could be less than two hours travel time apart, which though it may well be an hour slower than a flight, has a lot less overhead (no arriving two hours before departure, etc). The technology is quickly reaching the point where San Francisco to Los Angeles may be equally doable in around two hours, again an obvio…

Powerful lobbies are against a working passenger rail system. The auto industry employs something like 1/12 of the US population directly and indirectly.

The airline industry is dear to the hearts of congressmen, who fly back to their districts on the taxpayer dime, and subsidize the industry in all sorts of unique ways. The US Postal Service, for example, is compelled to subsidize air service in Alaska -- random towns of 250 people get 3 flights a day in many cases.

The rail business was put out of business by bitter labor disputes, subsidized highways and air travel in the 1960's. The direct Federal takeover of the industry (ie Amtrak) makes it difficult to function in a rational way, as it is subject to the whims of Congress. Amtrak is compelled, for example, to serve food on trains -- a service that loses millions of dollars annually.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#199

Post by codex » Wed, Nov 21, 2012, 5:38 AM UTC

Before we checked luggage for bombs, bombers took down entire aircraft by checking in explosive laden bags. Before we checked passenger shoes, a bomber attempted to detonate theirs. If we relax our security, how do we ensure these things don't happen again?

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#200

Post by methodover » Wed, Nov 21, 2012, 5:53 AM UTC

joonix wrote: post #2

I opt-out of the x-ray scanner every single time, and so should you. It really doesn't take much longer to go through the process. Show up 3 minutes earlier if you have to. You're rushing to the gate, for what? To sit there longer? Boarding with the crowds is stressful anyways. The most relaxed way to board is at the very end -- there's no more line, I just walk right into the plane, most people are seated, and just…

I wonder if there's a better way to register one's complaint rather than merely opting out. (And I happen to agree with another poster who said that the 'enhanced pat down' can be more degrading than the scanner if you get someone who gets a little overzealous when they 'encounter resistance.')

What about a t-shirt, perhaps? Printed on the shirt would be a calm and clear explanation of the problems with the scanners/groping. Everyone standing in line around you would see it, the TSA officers would see it, and it could get some conversations started.