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How can Apple deal with the memory shortage?

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Re: How can Apple deal with the memory shortage?

#191

Post by kube-system »

kennywinker wrote: post #187
kube-system wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If we ever want computers to be sustainably made - instead of scorching the earth with each new device - we need to stop thinking the way people treat their devices is some natural law of how things will always be. If this was solved by upgradable components, we would have "solved" e-waste in the 90s. Component upgradability is not a sustainability solution, because it is architecturally bounded.

Hard disagree. First of all, it’s true that upgrades were not a solution to sustainability in the 90s, but the issue was that computers were gaining ground exponentially. In just a few years, everything you had was so outmoded it was hard to imagine hardware that lasted more than maybe 5 years. That has changed. Second, sustainability isn’t a true false state. My previous computer, a 2015 macbook air, lasted me until…

In the same vein, as hardware changes have slowed down since the 90s, so have the causes of obsolescence shifted away from CPU speed or RAM capacity. Lack of TPM/secure boot and end of Windows 10 support is what has recently pressured a lot of PC users to upgrade. End of support for x86 MacOS is what will cause a lot of Mac users to upgrade.

Re: How can Apple deal with the memory shortage?

#192

Post by Danox »

ksec wrote: post #188
Danox wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current memory crisis it’s just another/final nail in the coffin for Apple moving the design and engineering of memory in house they have the capability and they have the money to do so.

May be Apple should purchase Intel or TSMC first? So they could be their own Foundry? What about ASML so they could produce the machine that fabs requires? And the current memory crisis? There is no crisis for Apple. There is only crisis for others buying at spot price.

Apple doesn’t need to buy them just need to continue to partner with TSMC, as far as Intel is concerned why would they buy or work with them now? Intel is absolutely low end these days and they were the company that said no to Apple when Apple wanted them to design the chip for the iPhone, Intel couldn’t imagine a future where computing was smaller better faster and hence they missed the mobile revolution take Intel at their word the future just isn’t for them.

Re: How can Apple deal with the memory shortage?

#193

Post by Danox »

throw0101c wrote: post #189
Danox wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definition: Apple is the architect and engineer, and someone else will do the fab probably TSMC who is also motivated to keep their engines running?

Given the current issue is with fab capacity, what would Apple gain by being the architect/engineer of RAM? They hand off the 'blueprints' to someone who is already at capacity? And it's not about motivation, but capacity: everything is currently at 100%. To get more capacity means building more fabs, and given the historically cyclical nature of semiconductors not may people want to necessarily take that risk (poten…

Once again, Apple is already given the bums rush to five other companies when they got in the way of what they wanted to build Apple isn’t going to sit around, based upon their recent history in the last 20 years and do nothing.

I don’t understand why that’s so hard to understand and I certainly don’t think Apple will hesitate with a new technocrat CEO coming in September 2026, if Apple had a “slug” MBA person coming in September, I might buy the argument that they may not do anything but they have shown that they are capable of playing the long game when necessary.

I wish I could’ve been a fly on the wall 5-6 years ago to see what the conversation was like on Hacker News when rumors of Apple replacing Intel came up. I bet it was much of the same. Oh no, don’t do anything.

Re: How can Apple deal with the memory shortage?

#194

Post by thisislife2 »

aaronsung wrote: post #186
thisislife2 wrote: post #108

Just a thought - stop bloody soldering the RAM and the SSDs. That partially transfers the burden on to the customers and makes their product more repairable ... Mac Minis (with un-soldered RAM and HDD / SSDs) used to be sold with minimum 4 GB RAM, if I remember right). This, way, you can still sell devices with lower RAM, and customers can upgrade in the future when supply increases.

The thing is why do they have to do so? In terms of bargaining power, Apple has the best position comparing to other cell phone/ iPad/ PC vendors. Their software are way more memory efficient than the competitors (like Windows 11 with all the bloated Electron/ Webview2 wrappers).

Bloated Electron / WebView wrappers also tout the feature of running on macOS - and many are forced to use such apps on the mac too ... what then? Apple deciding how much RAM is "enough" for you is based on the use case it has decided for each category of the device. If that isn't sufficient for you, you are supposed to buy the more "premium" edition, even if your use case for that is rare. Imagine if you suddenly need more RAM for a popular app 2 years down the line but you can't really do anything on a Mac now a days because the RAM is soldered and fixed. Buying upgrade-able RAM is obviously much cheaper, and much better for the environment, than buying a whole new device.

Re: How can Apple deal with the memory shortage?

#195

Post by thisislife2 »

kube-system wrote: post #181
pmontra wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally, I bought a HP laptop in 2014 with the basic 8 GB of internal RAM (4+4) and two 8 GB chips from a third party vendor. I opened the box and immediately threw away the 4+4 and replaced them with the 8+8. As you can guess it was much cheaper than the same 8+8 from HP. With soldered RAM one has to swallow whatever price the laptop manufacturer charges.

If you're generating e-waste right out of the box, I wouldn't say that's a plus.

You are concerned about 2 sticks of RAM as "e-waste" (even though it can be reused), but not about a whole Mac ending up as an e-waste because it can't be repaired or run other system softwares?

Re: How can Apple deal with the memory shortage?

#196

Post by thisislife2 »

kube-system wrote: post #139
drooopy wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even though I don't necessarily like it, I understand why they solder the RAM on the SOC: Higher bandwidth/greater performance, better power efficiency, etc. But they have no excuse for the SSD.

The excuse for the SSD is that the controller is on the SoC The shortage that connects to a modern Mac isn’t an SSD — it’s raw NAND.

Why does the controller need to be on the SoC when the market already has SSDs with built-in controllers that follow a standard and allow you to easily replace it?

Re: How can Apple deal with the memory shortage?

#197

Post by ksec »

Danox wrote: post #192
ksec wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May be Apple should purchase Intel or TSMC first? So they could be their own Foundry? What about ASML so they could produce the machine that fabs requires? And the current memory crisis? There is no crisis for Apple. There is only crisis for others buying at spot price.

Apple doesn’t need to buy them just need to continue to partner with TSMC, as far as Intel is concerned why would they buy or work with them now? Intel is absolutely low end these days and they were the company that said no to Apple when Apple wanted them to design the chip for the iPhone, Intel couldn’t imagine a future where computing was smaller better faster and hence they missed the mobile revolution take Intel…

>Apple doesn’t need to buy them just need to continue to partner with TSMC,

So why would Apple need to make their own memory? The theory is exactly the same. They just need to continue to partner with their NAND and DRAM vendors.

Re: How can Apple deal with the memory shortage?

#198

Post by CyberDildonics »

bullen wrote: post #118
thisislife2 wrote: post #108

Just a thought - stop bloody soldering the RAM and the SSDs. That partially transfers the burden on to the customers and makes their product more repairable ... Mac Minis (with un-soldered RAM and HDD / SSDs) used to be sold with minimum 4 GB RAM, if I remember right). This, way, you can still sell devices with lower RAM, and customers can upgrade in the future when supply increases.

100% agree the problem is modular RAM can't handle the timings of the SoC. There is a new modular RAM standard for precisely that but knowing Apple they will want to make their own. SSD should be easy but since RAM does not last that much longer you still need to resolder that after 5-10 years!

but since RAM does not last that much longer you still need to resolder that after 5-10 years!

Where are you getting this information?

Re: How can Apple deal with the memory shortage?

#199

Post by kube-system »

thisislife2 wrote: post #196
kube-system wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The excuse for the SSD is that the controller is on the SoC The shortage that connects to a modern Mac isn’t an SSD — it’s raw NAND.

Why does the controller need to be on the SoC when the market already has SSDs with built-in controllers that follow a standard and allow you to easily replace it?

It doesn’t have to be. It is an engineering decision that has design consequences. Integrating it likely has advantages in packaging, performance, power consumption, etc.

Re: How can Apple deal with the memory shortage?

#200

Post by kube-system »

thisislife2 wrote: post #195
kube-system wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're generating e-waste right out of the box, I wouldn't say that's a plus.

You are concerned about 2 sticks of RAM as "e-waste" (even though it can be reused), but not about a whole Mac ending up as an e-waste because it can't be repaired or run other system softwares?

I think if you’re concerned about ewaste at the end of a product’s life you should be equally concerned about products that are ewaste at the beginning of their life. Most PCs are never upgraded, and their socketed components end up in the landfill in vein and at a higher rate.
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