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Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

janrosenow.substack.com

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Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#191

Post by joe_mamba »

HPsquared wrote: post #45
joe_mamba wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So energy in Spain is cheap because they produce a lot but can't sell a lot easily, and Austria/Central Europe is expensive because they sell their domestic energy too easily? If this is what you meant, then it sounds like an argument against free trade, if it means you keep ending up with the short stick.

Free trade doesn't always benefit everyone equally, only a net benefit overall. It's a bit like how people often misinterpret the second law of thermodynamics "but the entropy decreased when the ice froze!"

>Free trade doesn't always benefit everyone equally, only a net benefit overall.

Yeah but everyone has an equal right to vote. If they don;'t benefit, why would they agree to get screwed for the "net benefit" of others?

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#192

Post by joe_mamba »

happosai wrote: post #190
joe_mamba wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that' doesn't always scan. Austria has a lot of wind, sun and hydro so its energy prices should be in line with Sweden, Norway, Denmark amongst the cheapest in Europe, and yet it's routinely amongst the more expensive in the EU.

Austria could be there but they would need to build oversupply of solar, wind and (pumped) hydro to saturate the export grid lines. And currently Austria isn't building renewables at scale. I think there is a strong NIMBY movement so the best places to build wind and pumped hydro are blocked...

>Austria could be there but they would need to build oversupply of solar, wind and (pumped) hydro to saturate the export grid lines

Or, you could reduce the export grid lines. Both have the same effect on supply/demand.

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#193

Post by mhh__ »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #188
mhh__ wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any substantial counterargument beyond "you aren't allowed to think that"?

No, I'm hereby banning you from reading obviously biased sources of partisan information that has been repeatedly proven false by logic, reason and experience.

> experience

We have some of the most expensive energy in the world, what gives? I was told renewables were cheap

Would you rather be biased or blind?

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#194

Post by tialaramex »

mhh__ wrote: post #193
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I'm hereby banning you from reading obviously biased sources of partisan information that has been repeatedly proven false by logic, reason and experience.

> experience We have some of the most expensive energy in the world, what gives? I was told renewables were cheap Would you rather be biased or blind?

> We have some of the most expensive energy in the world,

Some of the most expensive fossil fuel energy in the world it's true. So, we should be striving to reduce that further, like Spain, right ?

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#195

Post by XorNot »

scythe wrote: post #175
XorNot wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pumped hydro is objectively worse then batteries. Anyone can install batteries anywhere at a fairly minimal local fire risk. A dam is a major mechanical structure which if it fails will straight up obliterate downstream towns, and as such requires a numerous specialized engineering designs and on going maintenance to retain basic safety.

There have been two hydroelectric power plant failures in the United States in the last fifty years, and one near miss. This is among hundreds of dams many of which have operated for more than a century. A pumped-storage dam also doesn't increase the area subject to flooding. If the upper dam fails, it flows into the lower lake. This can potentially be a design consideration. It's not like a greenfield hydropower dam…

There have been considerably more dam failures though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Dam_failures_in_the_U...

Which is the point: any retained body of water like this is a significant geotechnical engineering project.

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#196

Post by ZeroGravitas »

mhh__ wrote: post #193
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I'm hereby banning you from reading obviously biased sources of partisan information that has been repeatedly proven false by logic, reason and experience.

> experience We have some of the most expensive energy in the world, what gives? I was told renewables were cheap Would you rather be biased or blind?

See, this is where logic and experience would have helped.

Would burning more expensive gas during a gas price crisis have helped?

No, UCL research suggests that wind power saved over 100 billion (this is net of 45 billion in subsidies) from 2010 to 2023! And it continues to do so.

And that's after it got effectively banned from being built onshore for a decade in England, costing many billions more.

(Though, the world got lucky here as the CfD mechanism helped prove offshore wind was feasible, another British success story).

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#197

Post by mhh__ »

tialaramex wrote: post #194
mhh__ wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> experience We have some of the most expensive energy in the world, what gives? I was told renewables were cheap Would you rather be biased or blind?

> We have some of the most expensive energy in the world, Some of the most expensive fossil fuel energy in the world it's true. So, we should be striving to reduce that further, like Spain, right ?

We have already done that. Do you know why gas often sets the price?

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#198

Post by mhh__ »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #196
mhh__ wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> experience We have some of the most expensive energy in the world, what gives? I was told renewables were cheap Would you rather be biased or blind?

See, this is where logic and experience would have helped. Would burning more expensive gas during a gas price crisis have helped? No, UCL research suggests that wind power saved over 100 billion (this is net of 45 billion in subsidies) from 2010 to 2023! And it continues to do so. And that's after it got effectively banned from being built onshore for a decade in England, costing many billions more. (Though, the wor…

> logic and experience

This is patronising drivel.

We burn gas when there is no wind & sun. We do this because there no alternative other than the lights going out. You are not seeing the whole.

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#199

Post by tialaramex »

mhh__ wrote: post #197
tialaramex wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We have some of the most expensive energy in the world, Some of the most expensive fossil fuel energy in the world it's true. So, we should be striving to reduce that further, like Spain, right ?

We have already done that. Do you know why gas often sets the price?

Because it's the most expensive used generation almost always?

But I'd actually be interested in seeing the underlying market data, even say for a week ago. Actually seeing the underlying offers really helps you to properly understand what the future looks like.

For example, right now wholesale is about £70 per MWh. What did the underlying bids and offers look like to hit that price ? How much CCGT was available for less than £50 ? 10MW ? 100 MW? 1 GW ?

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#200

Post by ZeroGravitas »

mhh__ wrote: post #198
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, this is where logic and experience would have helped. Would burning more expensive gas during a gas price crisis have helped? No, UCL research suggests that wind power saved over 100 billion (this is net of 45 billion in subsidies) from 2010 to 2023! And it continues to do so. And that's after it got effectively banned from being built onshore for a decade in England, costing many billions more. (Though, the wor…

> logic and experience This is patronising drivel. We burn gas when there is no wind & sun. We do this because there no alternative other than the lights going out. You are not seeing the whole.

Let me rephrase your comment:

When there is sun and/or wind we burn less gas.

Gas current and futures price for just the gas that needs burned (nothing about plant maintenance or carbon price to compensate for pollution or cost for building the plant or paying loans taken to build it etc.) is at 100, 90 and 80 pounds per MWh over the next 3 years.

That is more than the cost to build entirely new solar and wind, about double the cost of the best current projects, maybe 50% more than the average.

So even if you waved a magic wand and instantly solved several major world crisis affecting the price of gas, it still would be cheaper to build renewables in the UK than to buy just the gas alone.

This is true in the UK and basically everywhere in the world except maybe Russia, some parts of the middle east and the US Shale regions, but even there it's a close thing!

This has led to these being nearly 100% of all new electricity capacity built globally. Which only drives prices lower, and displaces gas and so makes gas cheaper than it otherwise would be too.

Didn't you start this thread by complaining about expensive energy?

We have the solution and you don't like it because you read news from magazines owned by people who pretend climate change isn't real.

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