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American Dads Became the Parents Their Fathers Never Were

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Re: American Dads Became the Parents Their Fathers Never Were

#191

Post by keiferski »

ndriscoll wrote: post #189
amanaplanacanal wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of women (and men) end up in relationships they hate, and if they have no independence they are pretty much fucked. They have no way to escape. Women having options makes a huge difference. What you are describing is pretty much ideal for a lot of people, but it's not what everybody gets.

How does this happen though? It's not like you wake up one day, look around and see you've started life in the middle, you're married and have kids, and you hate your spouse. Did your spouse have a stroke and undergo some massive personality change or something? Assuming you want a family, your very top priority when evaluating someone for dating from the very beginning should be whether that person would make a good…

I think the simple fact of the matter is that most people have absolutely no clue what they’re doing when it comes to relationships, and think their social media hot takes are indicative of what they ought to want.

Re: American Dads Became the Parents Their Fathers Never Were

#192

Post by 1dom »

david-gpu wrote: post #173
mothballed wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's truly glorious that what's in the "best interest of the children" is whatever matches the stranger outsider's philosophical goals. Of course who could argue with "engagement." That sounds great! The devil of that is in the details, and not necessarily mean anything approaching equal time spent child-rearing. "Interest of the children" spoken by some outsider to try and force others to act towards their philosoph…

I am merely explaining why I take care of my kids. Your reaction suggests that you feel attacked by that, when it is not my intention at all. Where do you think that reaction may be coming from?

You're not saying what your position clearly - instead you're "just asking questions", and it's rubbing some people up the wrong way (including me, sorry). It looks like you're not apologising for that because "it wasn't your intention".

If you're sincerely trying to engage in good faith, I feel you should be apologising for your role in sending it in the wrong direction unintentionally.

To be clear, I'm not taking a position in the debate here, just commenting that the way your engaging is legitimately a bit annoying if you're not aware. The other person getting really angry isn't the best look either, but I'm sure they already know that.

Re: American Dads Became the Parents Their Fathers Never Were

#193

Post by mitthrowaway2 »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #187
mitthrowaway2 wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, we're the first type, which is why my wife will probably join the workforce in a few years too, for want of money. But while the kids are young she thinks it's really important to stay home with them, even if it means living in a cramped basement for now. But the point is, we both would prefer to be home with the children, and it's only for want of money that either (or both) of us would work. Th…

>as though everyone deeply wants to spend their waking days at an office desk / driving an Uber / etc, I don't think this is it, which is why I brought up a trust fund in one of my previous comments. This comes down to personal risk tolerances, but it seems evident that many people feel that volatility in job markets and shrinking economic opportunities mean that there is a sufficient gain in security of housing/food…

Your framing makes perfect sense to me, and I agree with it. It comes down to economic forces requiring parents to sacrifice time at home with their children.

In this framing, being able to have a stay-at-home parent is a privilege to be treasured. Not everyone can manage it, which is a tragedy.

Of course, for those who don't want to be a parent and prefer their job, that's fine too. Some people, whether men or women, just yearn for the mines. I wouldn't say that any such people should be pressured to be a stay at home parent. Hopefully they can be happily childless, or else partner with someone who enjoys raising children, or else get support from grandparents or the community.

What I simply object to is a framing that views being a "traditional" stay at home parent as an intrinsically miserable or undesirable role, when it's what so many of us factory workers wish we could do ourselves but can't afford to. When a (loving, non-abusive) couple can afford to have one parent stay at home, my wife and I both view that stay-at-home parent as the lucky one.

Re: American Dads Became the Parents Their Fathers Never Were

#194

Post by treis »

mc3301 wrote: post #87
david-gpu wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without proper statistics we can't know. But I do wonder why is it that if you spend any time on parenting websites you find lots of mothers complaining about deadbeat husbands, and so few fathers complaining about deadbeat wives. Purely anecdotal, but it is very lopsided, and it has made me wonder why is it. I am a dad, FWIW.

I'm a dad, too. The lopsidedness could come from many places: mothers being drawn to parenting websites (marketing), women feeling more compelled to voice complaints online (if they are stay-at-home-moms, they don't have coworkers to chat with), women actually getting treated unfairly (very true... patriarchy), etc. I've heard this from many moms, "My husband does so little in terms of housework, childcare, play and…

You can see why men don't share often. The women get excuses (addiction, post partum, etc) and it's naturally assumed that men are dead beats. Probably not your intention but as one of those divorced dads I can tell you the bias is overwhelming.

Re: American Dads Became the Parents Their Fathers Never Were

#195

Post by something765478 »

nradov wrote: post #60
purplerabbit wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And guess why trad household structures are (still) popular in some circles

Those household structures aren't popular , they're just common when women have no other options. I have nothing against those structures, they work great for some families. But the reality is that they often force the wife into becoming an unpaid caregiver for her in-laws (who constantly criticize how she runs the household).

Women are just as responsible for enforcing traditions as men are. You could just as easily argue that men are the ones with less choice; after all, it is much more socially acceptable for a woman to work than for a man to be a stay at home dad.

Re: American Dads Became the Parents Their Fathers Never Were

#197

Post by amanaplanacanal »

keiferski wrote: post #191
ndriscoll wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does this happen though? It's not like you wake up one day, look around and see you've started life in the middle, you're married and have kids, and you hate your spouse. Did your spouse have a stroke and undergo some massive personality change or something? Assuming you want a family, your very top priority when evaluating someone for dating from the very beginning should be whether that person would make a good…

I think the simple fact of the matter is that most people have absolutely no clue what they’re doing when it comes to relationships, and think their social media hot takes are indicative of what they ought to want.

This is on top of societal pressures. In more liberal parts of the US (and the world) it's accepted that you will take your time finding a partner, or even stay single if you want. In more conservative societies the expectation that you will marry young and start popping out kids is intense.

Re: American Dads Became the Parents Their Fathers Never Were

#198

Post by retired »

grvdrm wrote: post #140
pkaler wrote: post #13

Yup. Woke up at 6am. Child 1 woke up at 7am. Dropped her off at daycare at 8am. All the other children were being dropped off by their dads, too. Full day of work ahead. Dinner at 6pm. Bath at 7pm. Bedtime and story at 8pm. Usually calls with Bangalore from 9pm to midnight but it's Labour Day over there. Sleep at midnight. Rinse. Repeat.

Are the 9pm and later calls w/Bangalore an every day thing? Here's my routine. 5am: wake up/coffee 5:30ish: gym 6:30ish: back, clean kitchen, take out trash, make lunch for 2 kids 7:30: nanny arrives, and I sit down at desk, and kids are now awake 8:30: walk older kid to school 9-5:30: work or whatever else. I run my own business so some days feel very busy, some the opposite. I just try to be intentional with my tim…

I'm in awe of people who are able to wake up in the middle of the night voluntarily!

Re: American Dads Became the Parents Their Fathers Never Were

#199

Post by wil421 »

WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #22

> Millennial fathers have roughly tripled the amount of time they spend with kids. I think this really undersells it. My mom parented a few hours a week. My kids (like most) lived under ceaseless 24/7 adulting. The time I spent with my sons was more like a 20x increase over my parents' generation. Past that, it seems like it's taking forever for anyone to notice the radical changes in modern parenting/childhood. Alon…

Sounds like you choose to live in a place without free range area. My neighborhood is covered with kids. Lots of kids on e-bikes after school on the main roads too. Plus a lot of packed are revamping side walks to accommodate bikes, golf cars, e-bikes and everyone on foot.

Re: American Dads Became the Parents Their Fathers Never Were

#200

Post by mothballed »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #197
keiferski wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the simple fact of the matter is that most people have absolutely no clue what they’re doing when it comes to relationships, and think their social media hot takes are indicative of what they ought to want.

This is on top of societal pressures. In more liberal parts of the US (and the world) it's accepted that you will take your time finding a partner, or even stay single if you want. In more conservative societies the expectation that you will marry young and start popping out kids is intense.

I think it goes both ways. I moved from a liberal to a conservative area. Maybe there are people shaming those who don't pop out kids, but more so I I've noticed it's that they're not shamed if they want to just let loose to their instincts and get impregnated as an 18-year-old and yield to their natural desires and interests. In a liberal city a 18 year old popping out a kid and is often viewed as a pariah.

I mean people do not naturally grow up wanting to stare at a desk/PC all day deciding to become a scientist or a doctor and study a bunch of shit that his almost no relation to what humans were adapted for for millions of years. Our evolutionary programming was to bang, have kids, and roam the jungle and grab the resources and satisfy our short brutish lives.

Now the fact that something is evolutionarily natural or historically normal doesn't mean it is good or right. But just letting loose on that particular natural instinct tends to be more accepted in conservative societies while in the city or liberal areas teenage (past age of consent) pregnancy is seen maybe more of something they will shame you for. You're supposed to do a pretty unnatural thing of staring at books until you're 22 or 26 and then stare at a computer screen so you can get a good job to pay a gazillion dollars for childcare delivered by minimum wage workers. You're supposed to take your time and maybe about the time your biological clock has run out, you pay $20,000 for IVF and you do a speedrun.

So which is a greater imposition of societal pressure? I won't claim conservative societies don't exhibit more social pressure than liberal ones. But on this point, it's not clear to me the conservative one is doing the greater of the pressuring.

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