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What being ripped off taught me

belief.horse

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Re: What being ripped off taught me

#191

Post by caminante »

ng12 wrote: post #54

One thing I learned from consulting is if you position yourself as the "fix your mess" guy you have to be very defensive. Ask for more up-front, and bail at the first sign of underpayment. Be pleasantly surprised when a poorly run project is being run by nice, honest people. Prep for the opposite.

IMHO, he was defensive in the way you suggest. He got ~25% upfront.

But let's assume he got 100% upfront.

More importantly, he didn't protect scope or contract change requests. That was the time to contract. It sounds like collecting 100% would've been leaving money on the table for value delivered.

I like your label for "fix your mess" guys, but I know/use a few who definitely bill and get paid much later (especially lawyers). Sucks for OP that he contracted with a CN firm with credit risk.

Re: What being ripped off taught me

#192

Post by thereitisfolks »

tombert wrote: post #185
yallknowme wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is rigged, and everyone knows it. Ivy League is supposed to be the “pinnacle of intelligence” but it produces only fraudsters and hacks. Talentless idiot retards like yourself who can’t wipe their own ass without their mommy.

I didn't go to an Ivy League school. I was a college dropout (dropping out from a perfectly-fine-but-not-remarkable state school) for the first decade of my career, and my degree now is from WGU, hardly some elite fancy school. I assure you I can wipe my own ass without my mom's help, and I haven't needed any financial help since that episode where I asked her to call in a credit card so they could do the pre-bill at…

> systemic financial inequality doesn't exist, people just like being victims

Ok well then I hope your house is burned down in riots and then your family are killed before your eyes, and then I'll just say you want to be a victim since that's the natural response to attitudes like yours

Literally won't even care when it happens, because I'll remember how you thought about it

Re: What being ripped off taught me

#193

Post by shermantanktop »

veunes wrote: post #97
eckesicle wrote: post #21

We’ve also learned this lesson the hard way. These are now the clauses we require in every project we do: - Payment is due X days after receipt of invoice, or immediately after the consultant has addressed any quality issues, whichever is sooner - Late payment shall incur interest at 8% above the BoE base rate and a late fee of 100 GBP as per the UK Late Payment Legislation. Partial payments on invoices shall apply t…

I think the hidden advantage here isn't even enforcement, it's filtering

That's almost always the case. Bad actors go find an easier target.

Re: What being ripped off taught me

#194

Post by tombert »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #189
tombert wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back in 2015 I worked for a startup. I turned down a job at a more stable company because this startup had me doing Erlang and I really wanted to work with that. The job worked fine for about six months, and then one week my paycheck (which usually was on the second and fourth Wednesday of the month) wasn't in my bank account. I go the CEO of the company and mention this and he said something like "Oh yeah, something…

> and then one week my paycheck (which usually was on the second and fourth Wednesday of the month) wasn't in my bank account. I go the CEO of the company and mention this and he said something like "Oh yeah, something got fucked up with payroll man, don't worry we'll give you a double paycheck next time, with interest man". > I was young enough in my career to just accept that This reminded me of two much smaller-sc…

Yeah, an issue with startups, especially extremely small startups, is that you often become very close with everyone. This isn't inherently a bad thing, it's good to like your coworkers, and when the startup does well it's kind of fun to trade "war stories" after the fact.

The problem is that if/when the startup goes bust, it is a double whammy; not only do you lose your job, you feel betrayed by someone who has become a close friend.

I liked this CEO, he was a really nice guy (until he apparently ran away with money), and since he had become (what I thought was) a friend, I felt inclined to believe him when he deflected my questions about the paycheck. Obviously I was wrong to trust him, but I was in my early twenties and hadn't become the cynical old man that I am now (and that I am actively trying to fight against now).

I used to blame myself for being so naive and believing him, but I don't anymore; being trusting and assuming the best of people isn't a disability. The guy lied to me, he's at fault, I'm not at fault for trusting someone that I thought was a friend.

Re: What being ripped off taught me

#195

Post by joshvm »

anonymars wrote: post #115
fmx wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ironically, the good clients pay within 2-3 days normally, and the difficult ones are very “long tail”. Why ironically? Isn't that exactly what you'd expect?

The ironic part is that the clients that don't need the looser payment terms (more time to pay the invoice) are the ones that get them Kind of mirrors "it's expensive to be poor"

This is the sort of economics that small companies face when working with large companies, particularly when physical things/CAPEX are involved. Large companies expect net 30/60 terms to pay you. That's much simpler for their accounting/purchasing department. This bureaucracy occasionally necessitates nudging, especially if the intermediary you're dealing with didn't set up the invoice request on time in whichever SAP/Salesforce/Oracle system they use.

This is usually the same the other way; many vendors will give business clients net 30. That's nice if you're a small company and need to plan ahead. But occasionally, because you're considered small (liability), some vendors will want the money up-front. So unless you're very careful with cashflow, you end up in situations where your main sources of income (big contracts) are coming in after you need to spend money on a widget to fulfill deliverables.

Depending on the situation, the contract can demand the client purchase/ship things and work doesn't start until you have them in hand. This is usually the best route as you now have an out, and it's not an unreasonable request, but it doesn't always pan out that way!

Re: What being ripped off taught me

#196

Post by tombert »

thereitisfolks wrote: post #192
tombert wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't go to an Ivy League school. I was a college dropout (dropping out from a perfectly-fine-but-not-remarkable state school) for the first decade of my career, and my degree now is from WGU, hardly some elite fancy school. I assure you I can wipe my own ass without my mom's help, and I haven't needed any financial help since that episode where I asked her to call in a credit card so they could do the pre-bill at…

> systemic financial inequality doesn't exist, people just like being victims Ok well then I hope your house is burned down in riots and then your family are killed before your eyes, and then I'll just say you want to be a victim since that's the natural response to attitudes like yours Literally won't even care when it happens, because I'll remember how you thought about it

I didn't say that systemic equality didn't exist. Of course it does, you can feel free to go through my post history if you want to see where I've argued that very point in the past. There's a million reasons why there exists inequality, like race, religion, ethnicity, and of course poverty. Obviously things should be done to help with that.

You said, and this is a quote, "don’t know anyone else in the world except for me who doesn’t have any help" which seems to suggest that you are being singled out.

I have no idea about your life and frankly I don't really care. You derailed something in order to complain about how the world hates you, and bizarrely tried to make me feel bad for being able to call my mother to call in a credit number for a hotel pre-bill, and it sure seems like you're trying to make yourself seem like a victim.

If you had your house burned down in a riot and had your family killed before your eyes, then I think you should see a therapist instead of fishing for...whatever the hell it is you're fishing for on Hacker News.

Re: What being ripped off taught me

#197

Post by direwolf20 »

hn_acc1 wrote: post #168
direwolf20 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe dissolving a corporation requires you to attest you've paid all debts. If that's impossible, you have to go through the bankruptcy process. If you attest that you've paid all debts but you haven't, now you're committing frame against the government which they really don't like. You could be imprisoned for that.

Is that how it works in China, though, when the debt is owned to someone in the US?

Even worse. In China they kill you for trying to dissolve a company without paying debts.

Re: What being ripped off taught me

#198

Post by s5300 »

999900000999 wrote: post #156
bena wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You realize that your anecdote here is itself virtue signaling, right? Because, I’m sure multiple people here could tell similar stories with the political leanings of the groups involved reversed.

I'm an individual. I can have beliefs. Corporations, can not. I've been though this twice. If they're doing press releases about how liberal they are, it's probably not a good fit. Now that I'm old and jaded, I want politics out of my workplace.

[dead]

Re: What being ripped off taught me

#199

Post by marcus_holmes »

> A contract is toilet paper

A contract is an entrance ticket to a court case. If you can't afford to fight the court case, the contract isn't much use. If the other party aren't in a jurisdiction that the court can enforce in, the contract isn't much use. If the other party can just vanish and when you try to take them to court, the contract isn't much use.

A contract doesn't stop other people from doing things (or make them do things that they would otherwise not do). It just specifies that if they do those things (or don't do them) then you can take them to court. You still need to be able to take them to court for any of this to work.

Contracts aren't toilet paper. But they also aren't the magic solution to all problems that they are sometimes held up to be.

Re: What being ripped off taught me

#200

Post by peanutgallery33 »

tombert wrote: post #196
thereitisfolks wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> systemic financial inequality doesn't exist, people just like being victims Ok well then I hope your house is burned down in riots and then your family are killed before your eyes, and then I'll just say you want to be a victim since that's the natural response to attitudes like yours Literally won't even care when it happens, because I'll remember how you thought about it

I didn't say that systemic equality didn't exist. Of course it does, you can feel free to go through my post history if you want to see where I've argued that very point in the past. There's a million reasons why there exists inequality, like race, religion, ethnicity, and of course poverty. Obviously things should be done to help with that. You said, and this is a quote, "don’t know anyone else in the world except f…

don't know anyone else != they don't exist
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