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Artemis II crew see first glimpse of far side of Moon [video]

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Re: Artemis II crew see first glimpse of far side of Moon [video]

#191

Post by guax »

thegrim33 wrote: post #172

It's pretty depressing that on a corner of the internet that's supposed to be a gathering of tech/geeks/nerds/stem people, discussing topics that "good hackers would find interesting", it's seemingly impossible to have a single thread about something like this that isn't almost entirely negative or political bickering.

I would be more depressed if, looking at the current political landscape this corner decided to be entirely alienated or oblivious to the environment in which this massive achievement is made.

Re: Artemis II crew see first glimpse of far side of Moon [video]

#192

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

jedberg wrote: post #167
dotancohen wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I stated that the United States is based on Christian values. Not that the United States is a Christian state. Do you value separation of state and religious authority? Women's rights? Minority rights? Human dignity? Equality before the law? Sanctity of life? Individual moral responsibility? Monogamous marriage? The objective study of history? Fair trial? Witnesses at trial? Tolerance of alternative viewpoints? Those…

> I stated that the United States is based on Christian values. Not that the United States is a Christian state. And I said: > Christians do not own the idea of being nice to others and trusting others. But let's look at your list: > Do you value separation of state and religious authority? Women's rights? Minority rights? Human dignity? Equality before the law? Sanctity of life? Individual moral responsibility? Mono…

Christian values are always whatever individual Christians say they are.

There's really no such animal in practice. Over time Christian values have included charity for the poor, rapacious capitalism, slavery, the abolition of slavery, anti-science, science, war, peace, and the rest.

Re: Artemis II crew see first glimpse of far side of Moon [video]

#193

Post by NetMageSCW »

philistine wrote: post #148
EvanAnderson wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know the RS-25 engines[0] (aka SSME, Space Shuttle Main Engine) were "reusable" in an academic sense (needing a ton of refurbishment after each use) but it hurts my heart that we're dropping them in the ocean and it makes it hard for me to feel good about the Artemis program. It's irrational but it makes the kid who loved the Space Shuttle (which, itself, was a political pork barrel and a jack-of-all-trades-master-…

You and me both. They don’t even put a parachute on the boosters to get them back. Some pieces on these boosters have been in use since the 80s.

And all of that reuse was so expensive that it set back reusable rocketry for decades as the common wisdom said it was uneconomical - even after it was demonstrated that you could have reuse without expensive refurbishment.

Re: Artemis II crew see first glimpse of far side of Moon [video]

#194

Post by westmeal »

bluegatty wrote: post #142
izzydata wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a fine time to be going to the moon, but we could be doing multiple productive things at the same time. It just doesn't surprise me that there are so many people that are not caring so much about this.

We are doing multiple productive things. Zillions of them. They are like 50 companies making robots right now that will soon do a lot of work. There are advances in many fields. Headlines are dominated by something else, the 'news' is not a good reflection of reality.

What about the workers that will be eventually replaced by said robots? You think they're just going to get free money to exist? Most likely they'll end up in the private prison system or in institutions while the corporations pocket all of the savings. Things are a lot more complicated than they seem I think...

Re: Artemis II crew see first glimpse of far side of Moon [video]

#195

Post by overfeed »

ryandrake wrote: post #88
al_borland wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I ran across this video[0] yesterday with Neil deGrasse Tyson talking about how it’s always been political. The first moon landing was more about global politics than science. As a child you likely weren’t concerned about that side of it, or were shielded from it. It isn’t always the purist motivations that push the human race forward, but forward it moves us. [0] https://youtu.be/j_AlXChA9F4

I don't think OP's problem with it is that it's "political" but that it's a product of pork and corporate welfare. The political thrust of the Apollo program was more "beat the Russians" and less "funnel money into dozens of already-rich corporations in favored districts." Even thought there was a lot of that, too. Modern space (and defense) projects seem to be almost 100% "pork funnel" and zero anything else.

> The political thrust of the Apollo program was more "beat the Russians" and less "funnel money into dozens of already-rich corporations in favored districts."

Artemis feels a bit more "Beat the Chinese, and show the world we still got it." I think cost-effectiveness[1] is a fig-leaf for what are SpaceX fanboys: had the same mission been on a Starship, HN would be awash with how other companies (Blue Origin) were late to earth-orbit, and the gap had widened beyond Earth's orbit.

1. In contrast, I haven't seen any complaints about Military-Industrial pork on any of the Iran threads, even when contrasting the cost of interceptors vs drones. Let slone have pork dominate the thread.

Re: Artemis II crew see first glimpse of far side of Moon [video]

#196

Post by bps4484 »

ryandrake wrote: post #88
al_borland wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I ran across this video[0] yesterday with Neil deGrasse Tyson talking about how it’s always been political. The first moon landing was more about global politics than science. As a child you likely weren’t concerned about that side of it, or were shielded from it. It isn’t always the purist motivations that push the human race forward, but forward it moves us. [0] https://youtu.be/j_AlXChA9F4

I don't think OP's problem with it is that it's "political" but that it's a product of pork and corporate welfare. The political thrust of the Apollo program was more "beat the Russians" and less "funnel money into dozens of already-rich corporations in favored districts." Even thought there was a lot of that, too. Modern space (and defense) projects seem to be almost 100% "pork funnel" and zero anything else.

It's not "almost 100% pork funneling" and I know this because....they're there! they are at the moon! I don't like pork either, but let's not blow this out of proportion.

How much do we think that it should have cost, if everything was perfectly optimized, to get to the moon? 50b instead of 100b? so ok, 50% was pork, and that's bad, but let's not overstate it and instead allow a little joy in our lives.

also the original apollo program was about 300b in today's dollars, so seems like things have always been a little porky.

Re: Artemis II crew see first glimpse of far side of Moon [video]

#197

Post by randomNumber7 »

oceanplexian wrote: post #162
GolfPopper wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking for myself (who has been fascinated with the space program since I was a small child), any joy I might feel around Artemis II feels tainted, by the immense amount of pork involved (SLS is called "Senate Launch System" for good reason) to the point where Artemis is more corporate welfare that happens to involve the Moon than a real space program, and by my belief that it is intended to be little more than a q…

> my belief that it is intended to be little more than a quick, dirty, and vainglorious Apollo repeat by a failing government. If the USA successfully sends people to the Moon, achieves all of NASA's technical goals, and the astronauts make it back in one piece, isn't that literally the opposite of failure? It might be expensive and you can argue that it's wasteful. But even to that point, the $11B cost of SLS is not…

> That doesn't seem a lot to explore a new frontier and expand the scope of humanity.

There is no gain in knowledge from this mission. It's more like cheering for your favorite soccer team.

Re: Artemis II crew see first glimpse of far side of Moon [video]

#198

Post by NetMageSCW »

rantingdemon wrote: post #146
nine_k wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 2-3 years we should expect a Starship mission to Moon, at a much more sensible scale, as in the amount of scientific gear and actual researchers delivered to the surface (and then back).

2 to 3 years is wildly optimistic. Of the 5 launches last year 3 were failures and it's not even close to be ready for humans yet.

Some people don’t understand the difference between testing and use. You can afford to test when your launches cost 1/100 of SLS launches instead of risking human lives. Artemis II was human rated with zero launches of its life support equipment, modeling failures of its heat shield, multiple power issues in its only predecessor flight in space. Starship will carry humans after hundreds of launches and landings.

Re: Artemis II crew see first glimpse of far side of Moon [video]

#199

Post by NetMageSCW »

harrall wrote: post #156
nixon_why69 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not being a hater, but we landed on the moon 55+ years ago and now we're doing a flyby with 35+ year-old engine tech. It's good that we're doing something but we should be doing better.

You’re not seeing better engines because there aren’t any. We are reaching the limits of physics. That’s why we are working on alternatives like refueling in space or reusable ships. The Artemis missions are testing things that we still have a lot of area to improve upon — materials (a huge one), international standards for things like docking ports, computing, radiation safety, and a lot more.

Artemis II doesn’t have any docking hardware since it won’t have anything to dock with. And Artemis in general is just using the IDSS used on the ISS and by Dragon and Starliner, nothing new being discovered or tested there.

Re: Artemis II crew see first glimpse of far side of Moon [video]

#200

Post by huflungdung »

thegrim33 wrote: post #172

It's pretty depressing that on a corner of the internet that's supposed to be a gathering of tech/geeks/nerds/stem people, discussing topics that "good hackers would find interesting", it's seemingly impossible to have a single thread about something like this that isn't almost entirely negative or political bickering.

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