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Judge orders government to begin refunding more than $130B in tariffs

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Re: Judge orders government to begin refunding more than $130B in tariffs

#191

Post by Jeremy1026 »

commandlinefan wrote: post #127
Jeremy1026 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> probably Hah, we are 100% not getting our money back. And the higher, tariff level, prices aren't going to go back down either.

Did they actually raise prices, though? I haven't noticed any significant jumps; my understanding was that they were absorbing (for the most part) the tariffs for the time being, but planned to raise prices in the near future.

I get more or less the same items from the grocery store every week. My grocery store shows me purchases going back a year.

3/9/25 - 45 items - $178.98

3/15/25 - 40 items - $187.13

3/22/25 - 59 items - $315.29

3/29/25 - 45 items - $131.36

...

2/14/25 - 48 items - $238.15

2/21/25 - 17 items - $117.49 (used $45 in coupons from store loyalty points, actual cost $162.49)

2/28/25 - 27 items - $165.27

My grocery bill definitely is feeling it, now is it 100% tariffs, probably not. But research points to it being some what related to tariffs [1,2,3] You'll notice in the most recent shops, I have been trying to skip the non-essentials when possible to keep my bill lower.

I don't have any other regular purchases with history to look back on. It's not like I replace all my consumer electronics every 6 months-1 year. Closest thing that I have to consistent historical data is 3D printer filament, which has gone from $15.99 to $16.99 on Amazon for my brand of choice from April 2025 to my most recent order last week.

[1] https://taxfoundation.org/blog/trump-tariffs-food-prices/

[2] https://budgetlab.yale.edu/research/state-us-tariffs-june-17...

[3] https://www.edelmanfinancialengines.com/education/life-event...

Re: Judge orders government to begin refunding more than $130B in tariffs

#192

Post by rayiner »

mothballed wrote: post #177
danielmarkbruce wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, because "the government" isn't one blob. The court system is separate from the administration. And the supreme court justices aren't giving the internal deliberations to someone in the administration, especially when the administration is one of the parties in the case.

.... what? 3 of the justices were nominated by Trump. You think the people appointing them didn't have internal deliberations before they were appointed, including about things Trump had thought about like tariffs? Even FDR knew the 'separation' was a farce, that's how he magically got the court to go along with progressive programs they prior didn't support, after the 'Switch in time that saved nine.' SCOTUS largely…

But 2 of those 3 voted against Trump! And 2 of the ones who voted for him were nominated by a free-trader republican.

Re: Judge orders government to begin refunding more than $130B in tariffs

#194

Post by mgkimsal »

One thing I don't see mentioned enough with the whole "the consumers paid these tariffs! we should get refunds!"... We "paid" not just in higher prices, but in many layoffs, reduction in working hours, skipped bonuses and raises. Companies that get 'refunds' will have an opportunity to use that money to rehire and repay workers. I'm cynical enough to think that will happen in large measures across the whole country, but I'm hopeful enough to want to see it happen nonetheless.

Delayed refunds won't even start to repair the damage done by bankruptcies triggered by high tariffs, the snowballed cost of tariffs impacting multiple steps in the supply chain, the emotional toll on families and communities having to deal with less money and rising prices. But rehiring and getting some regions and communities back to work might be a step in the right direction.

EXCEPT WE NOW HAVE A 15% GLOBAL TARIFF ONGOING. And a lunatic administration that will fight tooth and nail for years to keep this going as long as possible.

Trump "loves" this country so much it hurts me.

Re: Judge orders government to begin refunding more than $130B in tariffs

#195

Post by testing22321 »

ranyume wrote: post #171
benrutter wrote: post #119

Lots of comments along the lines that tarrifs were mostly passed down indirectly to consumers, who aren't entitled to refunds. I definitely agree on principle, it sounds pretty tricky to see how proving "I paid $x more for groceries because of tarrifs" would work in practice. Does anyone know of policy suggestions for how that could work?

You put the money on an investment pool and pay the citizens back in: * Direct Cash (using some equation for impoverished households) * Infrastructure * Better life conditions No other uses for this money. The returns and the uses of this money must be public.

Excuse me, this is the Inited States we’re talking about.

You’re getting mighty close to socialism there citizen.

Re: Judge orders government to begin refunding more than $130B in tariffs

#196

Post by thisisit »

danielmarkbruce wrote: post #122
satvikpendem wrote: post #30

Cantor Fitzgerald, formerly led by Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick and is now run by his son, went to various companies that were affected by tariffs and bought the rights to their potential tariff refunds for 20% of the value on the expectation that it'd be struck down by the courts. Now they stand to make huge returns of 3 to 5x for being correct on that bet, while, of course, consumers get nothing. Now if this i…

This is wrong. It's not insider trading. Lutnick didn't have inside information. His son just had a brain. Anyone who read the case knew which way the court was going, it was the least surprising decision ever. Perhaps the only surprising thing is that the court ever heard it.

You mean the guy who kept talking about bringing back jobs to US - jobs requiring Americans to screw iPhone parts - wasn't debating in bad faith, like you are doing here? I am shocked, I tell you. I am really shocked.

Re: Judge orders government to begin refunding more than $130B in tariffs

#197

Post by koolba »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #141
koolba wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it extortion? They could have gotten a different deal from anybody else or no deal at all. Nobody was twisting there arm or forcing them to deal with this one company to sell their tariff claims.

If two companies come to you with an offer to sell the refunds, and one has strong ties to a central figure in the administration — which can, in the future, subject or exempt you from new tariffs and otherwise use the Federal government’s powers to mess with you - are you truly free to choose either offer? Or is there a risk and a benefit to taking the one that’s tied to the administration? (And frankly, can you eve…

> If two companies come to you with an offer to sell the refunds, and one has strong ties to a central figure in the administration — which can, in the future, subject or exempt you from new tariffs and otherwise use the Federal government’s powers to mess with you - are you truly free to choose either offer?

Yes, because tariffs, like all taxes in the USA, are not imposed on individual people or entities. They’re on industries and specific materials.

If a company truly thought the chance of winning was low and needed the money now, they would pick the best offer. Regardless of who is making it.

Re: Judge orders government to begin refunding more than $130B in tariffs

#198

Post by jacquesm »

gruez wrote: post #162
jacquesm wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think businesses as a rule can all survive a 15 to 100% surcharge on their products without running into liquidity issues?

The stocks of major retailers haven't cratered, so maybe? You're going to have to present some figures rather than just asking rhetorical questions.

You have to present figures when you're arguing the hard-to-prove side of something not when it's plain obvious that business are not in a position to deal with such shocks in the market without having to reach for capital. This is not normal. Typical operating margins of business is anywhere from 5 to 20% with outliers in the digital domain but that's not the part that we are talking about here.

Anyway, you want figures, well, here are some figures:

https://marketrealist.com/why-did-700-bu/

I'm sure there are other sources, better ones, worse ones but they all tell roughly the same story: willy nilly tarrifs have a negative effect on one's ability to operate a business. Businesses like predictable, stable climates to operate in.

Re: Judge orders government to begin refunding more than $130B in tariffs

#199

Post by 6510 »

barelysapient wrote: post #44
satvikpendem wrote: post #30

Cantor Fitzgerald, formerly led by Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick and is now run by his son, went to various companies that were affected by tariffs and bought the rights to their potential tariff refunds for 20% of the value on the expectation that it'd be struck down by the courts. Now they stand to make huge returns of 3 to 5x for being correct on that bet, while, of course, consumers get nothing. Now if this i…

This assumes companies would have refunded consumers. Obviously if a company did this, refunding consumers was the last thing on their mind.

It will trickle down!

Re: Judge orders government to begin refunding more than $130B in tariffs

#200

Post by gruez »

mrwh wrote: post #173
satvikpendem wrote: post #30

Cantor Fitzgerald, formerly led by Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick and is now run by his son, went to various companies that were affected by tariffs and bought the rights to their potential tariff refunds for 20% of the value on the expectation that it'd be struck down by the courts. Now they stand to make huge returns of 3 to 5x for being correct on that bet, while, of course, consumers get nothing. Now if this i…

The executive class are out to get as much as they can as quickly as they can while the music plays, then retire to whatever luxury boltholt they can prepare. It's FIRE with private islands, and without even a figleaf of noblesse oblige any more.

>The executive class are out to get as much as they can [...]

This is just hollow populist anti-elite rhetoric. Who do you think sold them the tariff refunds? They're not buying them from granny who didn't know any better. They bought it from other executives who knew, or at least ought to know what was at stake.

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