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WebMCP is available for early preview

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Re: WebMCP is available for early preview

#191
post #100

For those concerned on making it easy for bots to act on your website, may be this tool can be used to prevent the same; Example: Say, you wan to prevent bots (or users via bots) from filling a form, register a tool (function?) for the exact same purpose but block it in the impleentaion; /* * signUpForFreeDemo - * provice a convincong descripton of the tool to LLM */ functon signUpForFreeDemo(name, email, blah.. ) {…

The irony of it all: the serious people who were working on web3 (and by "serious" I mean "those who were not just pumping a project tied with some random cryptocurrency") already have gone through all these pains of dealing with programmable user agents (browsers) and have a thing or two to help here.

Do they? AFAIK the main thing that was standardized on was Metamask and the few RPC functionality that came with that, but I also haven't kept up with the space in some tme.

Re: WebMCP is available for early preview

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The irony of it all: the serious people who were working on web3 (and by "serious" I mean "those who were not just pumping a project tied with some random cryptocurrency") already have gone through all these pains of dealing with programmable user agents (browsers) and have a thing or two to help here.

Do they? AFAIK the main thing that was standardized on was Metamask and the few RPC functionality that came with that, but I also haven't kept up with the space in some tme.

Yeah, I mean things like roll-ups for smart contracts that could do be used for cheap authentication. Zk-proofs for permission less access only for humans, etc.

Re: WebMCP is available for early preview

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because, thinking bigger picture, having an AI assistant acting on your behalf might be more effective than slow navigation via accessibility features? I get the wider point that if accessibility features were good enough at describing the functionality and intent then you wouldn't need a separate WebMCP. So what does WebMCP do that accessibility doesn't? Seems to me, at cursory reading, it's around providing a direc…

Navigation shouldn't be slow when using accessibility features though. The browser already prices the accessibility tree with full context and semantics of what is on the page and what can be interacted with. I take the same issue when MCP servers are created for CLI tools. LLMs are very good at running Unix commands - make sure your tool has good `--help` docs and let the LLM figure it out just like a human would.

I guess I was asking - assuming that WebMCP isn't totally misguided - which of course is an assumption - is there anything that current accessibility standards can learn from WebMCP - ie why did they feel the need to create it?

Re: WebMCP is available for early preview

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WebMCP is mediated by the browser/page & has the full context of the user's active page/session available to it. Websites that do offer real APIs usually have them as fairly separate things from the web's interface. So there's this big usability gap, where what you do on the API doesn't show up clearly on the web. If the user is just hitting API endpoints unofficially, it can create even worse unexpected split brain…

The whole point of an agent, though, is to overcome obstacles to accomplish tasks on your behalf. And since an agent is a computer program, the most efficient way to accomplish tasks using computer services is though APIs. Websites are first and foremost human interfaces, not computer interfaces. Having an agent use a browser to accomplish tasks on the principal’s behalf is a backstop. It’s for when service providers…

I think that is incredibly foolish a perspective. Rooted in old ridiculous slipshod biases, with no respect for users & their agency, and makes unsupported weak technical arguments that define away the possibility of APIs being anything but better.

> the most efficient way to accomplish tasks using computer services is though APIs

You don't state efficient at what, so I'll first argue you best case: energy efficient, least amount of computing done. Both provide mechanistic access. If the user already had the browser open and is going for help, the difference is nearly nothing. It's different wire formats. We are talking the smallest tiniest peanuts of difference. Arguing this either way is not worth the bits such argument would be stored on; it's trivial.

But this misses the broader view. Efficient at what? And I think you are thousands of miles of off, have reduced LLM's to an idealized state, that is starkly naive to what the job actually is.

First, let's go through the rest of the shit field of bad definitions and terms you have laid down to avoid having to think about or address any of the possibilities of webmcp and how it could be apt.

> Websites are first and foremost human interfaces, not computer interfaces

Which is why webmcp is a valuable contribution, so now the web page can have parity with all the other tools offered to an LLM. So that now you can stay on the page and still have a fantastic first class machine interface, from the page you are on.

> [Web browsing control] is for when service providers refuse to implement APIs—

Which WebMCP is a direct answer to, by allowing pages to offer a low friction access path that allows mechanistic control. Without the LLM having to "backstop" scrape and parse and puppeteer/playwright/devtools-protocol it's way through.

I suspect you are right that many players out there will seek control & domination of their users, and will reject webmcp and be layering on more constraints. This isn't an argument against webmcp. It's a moral/philosophical/economic statement of where the world is today, of the battle of intermediation/control capitalism that actively works against humanity/agency. WebMCP is a protocol to help agency & tools become more ubiquitous, more regular, more human, more natural. If it works, it makes the intermediation/control camp look bad. The good sites helping their users make mockery of those who keep layering anti-user anti-freedom hostility into their systems. WebMCP amplifies this struggle by making doing good and right things easier for sites, that is more visible and clear to users. Will eventually the bad people clamping down on hackery freedom eventually hear the music, reform their sick anti-human anti-possibility high-control ways? Or will they continue the path of eternal degredation? Unknown. But WebMCP makes better relations with sites possible. (Hopefully there is peril to ignoring this betterment.)

Sibfeel like I've tried to address what seem to me to be significant misses and misdirections you have put out.

Instead of tripping over what has been, lets finally get to the two aspects of users and their LLM agents that I think are crucial to assessing the potential value of WebMCP:

1. LLM's are adaptable & guidable. They are peers that we work with; there is more possible than a once off assignment of tasks. Our human agency is most amplified when we can interact and steer the course alongside the agent, when we can form opinions on its work. Driving a website that the user knows and is familiar is a shared medium that the agent and the human can work together on, refining as we go, to get to a success state.

If the agent is using an API, they have to craft a de-novo interface at every step of the process, either as text responses or MCP UI or other. The agent has to reinterpret and describe: it can't just show us what is, short of showing us OpenAPI definitions and json payloads.

2. I've already talked about the process, but the definition of done in "accomplish tasks on your behalf" also insufficiently describes what LLMs need to do. Accomplishing the task is only part of the job: giving the results to the user, showing them the final state is a key part of the agent+human work-cycle. Verifying the results is vital! Agents make all kinds of incorrect assumptions as they go, need real help! How does the LLM prove it sent the strawberry muffin recipe to grandma? If there is an api, the agent can say the request responded 200. But was it the right request? Using APIs means having to have undeservedly high levels of trust in the agent. Layering agency onto the web allows the agent to perform, in a way that users can see and gain the knowledge/insight & verification at the end of the process quickly.

> Having an agent use a browser to accomplish tasks on the principal’s behalf is a backstop

In conclusion, I argue that this is a deep misunderstanding of what the agent's role is. It is a co-partner to us humans, helping us not by achieving tasks on its own independently, but by working actively along side is in a multiplayer fashion, as a peer, not a distant autonomous system. Turning the web into a shared medium where users and agents can work together would greatly enhance LLM's ability to meaningfully accomplish their tasks alongside their humans, and would improve accomplishing the task of telling the human about it after, by giving the human the well known trustworthy interface they already are familiar with.

Re: WebMCP is available for early preview

#197

Can someone explain what the hell is going on here? Do websites want to prevent automated tooling, as indicated by everyone putting everything behind Cloudfare and CAPTCHAs since forever, or do websites want you to be able to automate things? Because I don't see how you can have both. If I'm using Selenium it's a problem, but if I'm using Claude it's fine??

I think I have one explanation why for a website, exposing an MCP servers AND having captchas can make sense.

- an agent loading the real page is waste for the server, because the data sent is a few megavytes, and you don't have the usual returns of an user seeing your ads

- BUT API requests (or here, MCP) are much lighter, a few dozen kB, so that makes the ROI positive again

At least that's my view : please tell me, anyone, if that reason doesn't make sense!

Re: WebMCP is available for early preview

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Navigation shouldn't be slow when using accessibility features though. The browser already prices the accessibility tree with full context and semantics of what is on the page and what can be interacted with. I take the same issue when MCP servers are created for CLI tools. LLMs are very good at running Unix commands - make sure your tool has good `--help` docs and let the LLM figure it out just like a human would.

I guess I was asking - assuming that WebMCP isn't totally misguided - which of course is an assumption - is there anything that current accessibility standards can learn from WebMCP - ie why did they feel the need to create it?

I'm not aware of anything WebMCP could add that wouldn't be more useful as an improvement to accessibility tooling instead.

MCP is ultimately another solution to trying to make RPC(ish) situations more RESTful. I.e. they need self-documenting, discoverable APIs.

That's exactly what you can get from both HTML and the accessibility tree, though. We don't need another implementation for it. My guess (conjecture here) is that all the skills, MCP, WebMCP, etc talk is a manifestation of all the model providers and VCs backing them trying desperately to have others find ways to make LLMs worth the cost.

Re: WebMCP is available for early preview

#199

Please don't implement WebMCP on your site. Support a11y / accessibility features instead. If browser or LLM providers care they will build to use existing specs meant to health humans better interact with the web.

Or have an a11y standard for MCPs, where they can't show UI elements and have to only respond with text so that Voice Readers could work out of the box. This would be a game changer, currenly Voice Readers do not work very well with websites and a11y is a clunky set of tags that you provide to elements and users need to move around elements with back/tab and try to make a mental model of what the website looks like.…

Agreed that better browser support for accessibility tools is always welcome. I just don't think MCP is required at all there, the APIs are already well documented and built right into the browser.

Re: WebMCP is available for early preview

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best practices are changing. Many accessibility features were built due to the computer not being understand correctly. For example how something that looks like a checkbox despite being just a div is would not get recognized properly. Now with AI, the AI understands what a checkbox is and can understand from the styling that there is a checkbox there.

Or just use in the first place and save humans and machines a whole bunch of time.

That's already possible today yet there are still people who don't which is why a more general solution for the screen reader is needed rather than requiring every site developer to do something special.
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