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America vs. Singapore: You can't save your way out of economic shocks

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Re: America vs. Singapore: You can't save your way out of economic shocks

#191

Post by raw_anon_1111 »

Jach wrote: post #186
raw_anon_1111 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were you around and trying to get health insurance before 2012? I was. The startup I worked for shut down and while I had a well paying contract lined up literally the next week, I couldn’t get health insurance at any price because of a pre-existing condition even though at the time, I was a part time fitness instructor and I had just gotten through running my first (and last) two half marathons. If you are betting o…

So what did you do? Clearly you didn't die. Did you just have no insurance for the week before the new job started, or what? This also happened to you while you were working and slightly between jobs. So it's not really a FIRE concern if the concern is the US messing up the health care system even more in that it would effect everyone whether working or not. Generally speaking, an answer to mitigating a lot of types…

No, my then fiance/now wife and I canceled our wedding we had planned, and went to the courthouse and got married six months earlier so I could get on her insurance.

Also, just so happen I did end up in the hospital three weeks later because something happened that affected my breathing for an entire year.

And how do you “go back to work” if the entire reason you need to go back to work is that you have a health condition?

If you haven’t checked, jobs aren’t that easy to come by quickly in 2026 in tech like they use to be. Sure I could find someone to give me a contract if not hire me full time - but we are still back to not having insurance .

The US messing up insurance on the open market is the concern and it being back like it was pre ACA. That only affects the unemployed under 65.

As far as being between jobs - usually you can get COBRA for a limited amount of time - not an option for FIRE.

Oh yeah, that brings up another point, I did pay for COBRA for two months back then. The contract I had paid more than enough to afford it. Then the acquiring company shut down their insurance plan and COBRA wasn’t even an option

Re: America vs. Singapore: You can't save your way out of economic shocks

#192

Post by foxyv »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #183
foxyv wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is really easy to "Fuck it up" when greedy assholes jack up the price of necessities like food, shelter, and medical care. 66% of bankruptcies are due to medical costs. We should just socialize necessities like food, shelter, and medical care so there is no chance of "Fucking it up." That would cover the possibility of disability as well. It sounds to me like we have built a system to exploit people as much as pos…

>We should just socialize necessities like food, shelter, and medical care so there is no chance of "Fucking it up." How does socializing work if there are insufficient workers relative to non workers? I.e. the supply of food/shelter/medical care is insufficient to meet the demand?

Why would there be insufficient workers relative to non-workers? Socializing health care, shelter, and food does not lead to a worker shortage. In fact, having a healthier and taken care of population leads to prosperity in general. In addition, it leads to reduced costs. Countries with socialized medicine pay a fraction of what America does for better health outcomes.

Re: America vs. Singapore: You can't save your way out of economic shocks

#193

Post by skrtskrt »

everforward wrote: post #57
ecshafer wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CPF sounds pretty clever. It covers a major individual cost and need (retirement, medical, housing) instead of just throwing it into a tax. It makes the government money. This sounds like a win win kind of policy.

To me it sounds like a tax structured in a strange way so it doesn't obviously read as a tax. It's essentially a forced loan to the government at subpar rates. The "tax" is the delta between what the government pays out for the bonds vs what a bond of equivalent risk in the free market would have paid. The magnitude of the investment also probably makes it impractical for anyone but the very wealthy to retire before…

> The magnitude of the investment also probably makes it impractical for anyone but the very wealthy to retire before that starts paying out...

But they can pull out for housing right? That's an enormous portion of most people's expenses. If I didn't have to worry about housing, I could be living large on less than half of my salary, I would certainly semi-retire at least.

Re: America vs. Singapore: You can't save your way out of economic shocks

#194

Post by snake42 »

raw_anon_1111 wrote: post #173
snake42 wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FIRE doesn't depend on having a tech job. Its all about income to expense ratio. Planning for medical events is something that gets talked to death in these communities.

How do you plan for a potential quarter million dollar medical bills over a couple of years?

The same way that an employed person would plan for this. Catastrophic insurance plans put a cap on how much your medical bills can be.

Re: America vs. Singapore: You can't save your way out of economic shocks

#195

Post by raw_anon_1111 »

snake42 wrote: post #194
raw_anon_1111 wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you plan for a potential quarter million dollar medical bills over a couple of years?

The same way that an employed person would plan for this. Catastrophic insurance plans put a cap on how much your medical bills can be.

An employed person since the ACA hasn’t had to worry about lifetime caps…

Oh and catastrophic insurance plans only have to cover pre-existing conditions since the ACA - which one party is actively trying to kill.

Re: America vs. Singapore: You can't save your way out of economic shocks

#196

Post by kaashif »

gruez wrote: post #77
delta_p_delta_x wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singapore is one of the last countries one will be a 'serf' in. The parent contributor has conveniently left out the fact that the 37% of CPF contributions is split 20-17 in terms of employee-employer contributions[1], and has a ceiling of S$8000[2], so if one earns more than that, every additional dollar goes entirely to them, which is also taxed at globally low income tax rates[3]. One can put all one's post-tax mo…

>The parent contributor has conveniently left out the fact that the 37% of CPF contributions is split 20-17 in terms of employee-employer contributions[1] This point is a shell game, because the employer's share is still effectively being taken from the employee. It's equivalent of "tariffs are paid by foreigners!" that's trotted out for supporting tariffs.

I almost feel like the employee/employer distinction is actually worse than tariff fakery because at least tariffs are somewhat confusing to the average person, so you almost see why they get fooled.

But I feel like no-one would be fooled if you changed an e to an r on payslips (employee contribution to employer) - it's just obviously the same.

Re: America vs. Singapore: You can't save your way out of economic shocks

#197

Post by everforward »

raw_anon_1111 wrote: post #84
everforward wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it sounds like a tax structured in a strange way so it doesn't obviously read as a tax. It's essentially a forced loan to the government at subpar rates. The "tax" is the delta between what the government pays out for the bonds vs what a bond of equivalent risk in the free market would have paid. The magnitude of the investment also probably makes it impractical for anyone but the very wealthy to retire before…

It’s almost impossible for an upper middle class couple to retire in the US before their 65 unless they have some type of government provided or private company provided health insurance like teachers, police officers, military etc. It’s about $25K a year for a decent plan which is doable. But you have to hope that Republicans - and yes this is a political issue - don’t successfully kill the ACA and make it impossibl…

Without digging into this too far, I do think it’s possible but it does require starting early and sticking to the plan. I’m not one of those people, but I know people who are.

The mean household income for the 4th quintile is 115k a year. The mean of the middle quintile is 70k. There’s a theoretical 45k a year spread if you earn like the 4th quintile and spend like the 3rd (evidently possible since a lot of people live in the 3rd quintile).

Even ignoring compound interest, if you can hit that 4th quintile at 30 and you lose half the spread to taxes, by 55 you have 25 years of saving 22.5k/year for 562.5k in savings.

It’s probably not the most fun thing, but I do think it’s doable.

Re: America vs. Singapore: You can't save your way out of economic shocks

#198

Post by raw_anon_1111 »

mothballed wrote: post #170
greedo wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you accept cancer as a death sentence, you're an idiot. I had cancer at age 41. If I left it untreated, sure I'd be dead, probably by age 43. But I'm not an idiot, I had good health insurance, I was treated, and now that health event is over twenty years in the past. Had I self-funded with a (non-existent) nest egg, I would still be in debt over $600k. Instead, my insurance had to deal with that...

600k once in 40 years is cheap compared to the total cost of insurance, especially when you consider the compound interest you could have made on premiums not paid, plus with the freedom to get cancer care cheaper someplace privately outside the US. Your insurance company got the last laugh by a long shot. A typical family on insurance would pay $600,000 (between their take-home and the reduced wages paid by employer…

Are you really suggesting that a family should not have insurance at all and save the money?

I have been working for 30 years and have never once paid more than $10K a year for insurance across 10 jobs 15 of those years were a family plan.

Hell one of those jobs was with Amazon - the company with the shittiest benefit package in all of BigTech and even then I only $12K with a family plan. Right now we pay around $10K - my wife myself and my adult but under 26 (step)son

Re: America vs. Singapore: You can't save your way out of economic shocks

#199

Post by everforward »

alistairSH wrote: post #110
everforward wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it sounds like a tax structured in a strange way so it doesn't obviously read as a tax. It's essentially a forced loan to the government at subpar rates. The "tax" is the delta between what the government pays out for the bonds vs what a bond of equivalent risk in the free market would have paid. The magnitude of the investment also probably makes it impractical for anyone but the very wealthy to retire before…

That's not all that different than US Social Security. SS has a much lower required contribution/tax rate, but the overall scheme seems similar (lower than market returns, etc) and naming (despite SS actually being called a tax, many residents think of it as a required personal retirement savings account).

SS is different mostly in that you’re not really loaning money to the government. The money coming in today mostly goes right back out as payments.

There’s also an upper limit on SS taxable income. I forget what it is, but basically the entirety of the top quintile isn’t paying SS on their entire income. I want to say it’s like 90k, but it’s been a while since I looked.

Re: America vs. Singapore: You can't save your way out of economic shocks

#200

Post by raw_anon_1111 »

paulddraper wrote: post #187
raw_anon_1111 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much of a nest egg do you think would let you afford a major operation like heart surgery or cancer care?

Read the qualifier. And heart surgery is ~$60k. [1] That's [1] https://cost.sidecarhealth.com/ts/heart-bypass-surgery-cost-...

I have never in my 30 year career paid more than $10K a year for health care across 10 jobs and that’s including working at Amazon with their shitty benefit package
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