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What your Bluetooth devices reveal

blog.dmcc.io

191–200 of 204 posts

Re: What your Bluetooth devices reveal

#191
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did this play out? Were the ads from an app from the store that you had installed? Or did they spam you over SMS because they associated your bluetooth info with an account you have with the store, or contact info they bought from a third party?

> Were the ads from an app from the store that you had installed? This is my main concern over installing apps in general but specifically store apps. I've noticed that grocery stores are moving past existing loyalty cards and want you to use their apps for exclusively available digital coupons. The prices I'm seeing are very compelling and are on top of existing loyalty card discounts, and I could see lots of people…

Kroger here has done that with their app. The loyalty card/phone number still works for many of the specials, but the "digital deals" thing by using the app and scanning a QR code on the price sticker gives BIGGER discounts. Its not the most convenient way to shop, but I am willing to save 15-20% more usually.

Re: What your Bluetooth devices reveal

#192
post #161
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are technical reasons, though. Let's suppose we have a pacemaker, and it has data that is beneficial to read -- maybe even in real-time on their pocket computer, or opportunistically as the patient walks by their reader-device, or however that is done. So we want this data, and we want it over RF. It probably seems obvious that it should only transmit when it is told to do so, right? So how do we tell the pacem…

> In terms of power, it's often less costly to intermittently transmit a string of data than to continuously operate a radio receiver. The fair comparison would be intermittently transmitting a string of data versus intermittently operating a radio receiver, wouldn't it? Maybe it's still less costly to transmit, that I don't know. But I am interested about it :-). > And maybe it's a bad idea to have an implanted pace…

> The fair comparison would be intermittently transmitting a string of data versus intermittently operating a radio receiver, wouldn't it?

Good point. I don't know that this would actually work with BLE, as implemented on our pocket supercomputers (which I presume to be a useful part of the support system of a modern pacemaker).

But if we change the requirements to "Some kind of maybe not-even-invented-yet RF thing, maybe with a rechargeable translator device that a person keeps in their pocket to convert to BLE when that's useful" then: Sure. Intermittent receive could be used instead.

Whether that's more efficient or not is an interesting problem.

Transmitters tend to use more instantaneous power (ie, Watts) than receivers do, but a transmission can be very, very short. It doesn't care whether anything is listening or not. Transmitter wakes up, blurts out what it has to say, and goes back to sleep.

If a chunk of BLE data of this size takes 1ms of transmit time (it might), and it happens every 60 seconds (it might), then that's transmitting for 1.44 seconds per day.

So total consumed power over time (ie, Joules per day, or whatever) can be very low. That's part of how we got here -- BLE is built around this concept, and it all converges to make this easy to accomplish.

Meanwhile: An intermittent receiver tends to use less instantaneous power, but it usually needs to operate for a longer period. It wakes up and actively listens for instructions for a period of time. If none are received, then it goes back to sleep. Synchronizing free-running clocks is hard (and disciplining them is expensive, power-wise, compared to a sleep state), so maybe that receive window is 50ms every minute. Worst-case: The receiver operates for 72 seconds per day.

Even if receiving uses just 1/10th the instantaneous power as transmitting does (this is probably in the right ballpark), then the intermittent receiver still uses a ton more power over time -- especially if there are no transmissions to receive. (The receive window obviously closes if/when a transmission is received, so having something to hear can improve this some.)

But the end goal isn't just to wake the pacemaker up by pinging it. The end goal is for it to transmit data. So we still get to wake up the transmitter and have it do that.

Now, these are all made up numbers -- I think they're somewhere near reality, but maybe not. But it seems like kind of a double-whammy, to me, compared to intermittent transmit. :)

Re: What your Bluetooth devices reveal

#193
post #192
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In terms of power, it's often less costly to intermittently transmit a string of data than to continuously operate a radio receiver. The fair comparison would be intermittently transmitting a string of data versus intermittently operating a radio receiver, wouldn't it? Maybe it's still less costly to transmit, that I don't know. But I am interested about it :-). > And maybe it's a bad idea to have an implanted pace…

> The fair comparison would be intermittently transmitting a string of data versus intermittently operating a radio receiver, wouldn't it? Good point. I don't know that this would actually work with BLE, as implemented on our pocket supercomputers (which I presume to be a useful part of the support system of a modern pacemaker). But if we change the requirements to "Some kind of maybe not-even-invented-yet RF thing,…

Very interesting insights, thanks a lot!

Re: What your Bluetooth devices reveal

#194
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I explicitly said I was being annoying for no valid reason. If you want to justify something here, you should probably justify that you weren't annoying for no valid reason. Does your dictionary say that "not allowed" is specific to parents and children?

From the HN guidelines: Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Thank you! That's exactly what you did not do. The strongest plausible interpretation of "not allowed in Europe" was perfectly fine.

I'm glad we agree.

Re: What your Bluetooth devices reveal

#195
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't worry about Tesla's being tracked. Via Bluetooth this has existed for at least 7 years [1] (was mentioned on HN as well). Tesla know (also for 7 years), Musk doesn't care 'since license plates can also be tracked'. I used it in train stations, and get hits when passing highways via train or bus. Esp. fun if you stand still due to traffic lights or traffic jam, since you can try to get a visual. The only lesson…

> Not allowed This phrasing needs to die. Not allowed is something your parents imposed on you when you were a child. You’re not allowed to have an ice cream, or you’re not allowed to hang out with that boy. Laws don’t not allow anything, they only sometimes impose penalties if you’re caught breaking them.

I consider businesses who do this to track customers naughty, and I find their behaviour childish (scriptkiddie level). Therefore, 'not allowed' is exactly the phrasing I like to use in this context, and readers are expected to understand this refers to legal status.

You should also consider not everyone on HN is a native speaker, and consider to focus on the content of posts instead of minor tangents.

Re: What your Bluetooth devices reveal

#196
post #89
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> being IoT or BT enabled Please don’t conflate these two. I have lots of BLE wearables and other sensors. They only send data to my own computer which I control, unlike IoT devices which by definition send to a third party on the Internet. To me it is far more important to protect against strangers on the Internet versus someone wardriving the neighborhood. On a related note, did you know that EU has a Radio Equipme…

> I have lots of BLE wearables and other sensors. They only send data to my own computer which I control That's perhaps technically correct, but a naive interpretation of the risk. I don't need to see the data your BLE devices are sending you, all I need is traffic analysis and meta data from the signals they are broadcasting - and they broadcast that to anyone within detection range which includes attackers with muc…

It’s not naïve. It’s called having a reasonable threat model. I worry a lot more about random people on the Internet than random people who can get physically close to me. And if you do get physically close, you will find thousands of Bluetooth devices, just by virtue of living in a dense city.

Re: What your Bluetooth devices reveal

#197
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the HN guidelines: Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Thank you! That's exactly what you did not do. The strongest plausible interpretation of "not allowed in Europe" was perfectly fine. I'm glad we agree.

> That's exactly what you did not do.

Heh, yeah, you do have a point there.

Re: What your Bluetooth devices reveal

#199
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s all of the EU. It’s literally illegal to sell new cars without a radio transceiver in them.

But is it illegal to personally disable it?

No but it often involves voiding warranty and/or labor-intensive, really annoying work to access something you can disable.

Re: What your Bluetooth devices reveal

#200

Somewhat related - I've been working on a design using Nordic's NRF52840 SOC for work; Intensely focusing for the past few weeks on antenna tuning for maximum BLE range. Part of the testing involves using the 'nRF Connect' app, which lists all nearby Bluetooth devices, plots signal strengths, and allows for some rudimentary communication. It doesn't seem to be Nordic-specific. I'd frequently leave the app open scanni…

Random question, but will this be open sourced at any point? Just asking as a curious party who just bought one for exploration lol Also super random question but would you happen to have any idea/advice on how to get a Raytac MDBT50Q-CX Nordic nRF52840 Dongle ( https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0DP6MVDZQ ) flashed with ButteRFly ( https://github.com/whad-team/butterfly )? I got it flashed through nrfutil with sniff…

Hi, sorry I missed your reply - Unfortunately it's a proprietary design, the vendor provides the firmware, I do all the schematic capture / PCB layout.

Good luck though!

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