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Open source is not about you (2018)

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Re: Open source is not about you (2018)

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Accepting a gift without an intention to reciprocate is an admission of social inferiority. I wish I'd read your response more thoroughly before responding from my phone in a parking lot. You do not understand gift economies at all. You've reduced them to transactionality, which is capitalism, and capitalism kills gift economies for fun. Robin Wall Kimmerer is a molecular biologist who is also a mother and a member…

Perhaps we are talking about two different concepts called "gift economy". The gift economy concept I'm familiar with has been used to describe various non-state polities, where people exchange gifts to maintain relationships and establish social standing. Gifts between peers are expected to be of similar value, while patrons are expected to give their clients more valuable gifts than they receive.

Well you’ve got less of a capitalist filter on that than I feared but I think you’ve got the cart before the horse.

The parts that relate to open source are this: when you have riches, you share them. People making a genuine effort to reciprocate when they are able (which may be months or years from now) makes the social structure function (if you like, by the rule of large numbers - someone always has more than they need when others do not).

If you do share in kind, your social status is unaffected by this aspect of your culture. If you are consistently more generous, your status increases. Call it Bayesian if you like. He helped us in the past, he will help us again in the future, so let’s keep him safe.

If you’ve ever been nominated as a maintainer on someone else’s project, this is usually why. You’re one of the top contributors not already on the core team, and they either like you a lot, or the contributions from others have fallen off and even they know this is not sustainable, and you’re the next best option.

There is an element of gifts given to strangers, which I’m claiming should also show up in how you receive “visitors” to your project, but I think outside of fiction this is typically set at a best effort level. It’s acceptable to set it at the “decency” level discussed elsewhere in this thread. But a lot of people don’t and then yell back when people scold them for it.

Re: Open source is not about you (2018)

#192
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me change the perspective: Are you in any way no matter how small responsible for what you create, what you post online, and what effects those actions have on other people?

Sometimes! If I post an article about how drinking bleach makes your skin softer, I share responsibility when someone does it. If I post an article about how to make your own bleach, and a reader says “that sounds tasty” and drinks some, that’s not my responsibility in any way. If I put up some trash code with a README that says “this is solid, reliable code that you should use for storing all of your financial data…

> README that says “this is solid, reliable code that you should use for storing all of your financial data and family photos,”

Show me a readme like that! I'll wait.

Everybody writes a legalese disclaimer that basically say it's trash software and the author has no resposibility, but here's the thing: everybody ignores it. This is the reality of FOSS software.

Nobody has the time to audit the code of every FOSS they use. We all assume some basic quality such as not deleteting /var/db and the responsibility is yours to not do that or not publish it, no matter what you wrote in the readme/disclaimer.

Re: Open source is not about you (2018)

#193
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes! If I post an article about how drinking bleach makes your skin softer, I share responsibility when someone does it. If I post an article about how to make your own bleach, and a reader says “that sounds tasty” and drinks some, that’s not my responsibility in any way. If I put up some trash code with a README that says “this is solid, reliable code that you should use for storing all of your financial data…

> README that says “this is solid, reliable code that you should use for storing all of your financial data and family photos,” Show me a readme like that! I'll wait. Everybody writes a legalese disclaimer that basically say it's trash software and the author has no resposibility, but here's the thing: everybody ignores it. This is the reality of FOSS software. Nobody has the time to audit the code of every FOSS they…

“ SQLite is a C-language library that implements a small, fast, self-contained, high-reliability, full-featured, SQL database engine. SQLite is the most used database engine in the world. SQLite is built into all mobile phones and most computers and comes bundled inside countless other applications that people use every day.”

You don’t have to fully audit what you use, but you’d better do some basic vetting. If there’s no web site, no documentation, no activity on the issue tracker, then maybe when you put all your precious data into the thing and lose it, that’s your problem.

Re: Open source is not about you (2018)

#194
post #183
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you (plural) can't write a one line answer to a bug report or click a reject PR button, then why should I put any effort? You wrote a PR because you benefited from source code that somebody on the internet shared for free, and wanted to share that work for free as well. See the PR as just one way to open source your patch. You could put it on your blog, in an email list, or keep it in a fork. By opening a PR, yo…

> You could put it on your blog, in an email list, or keep it in a fork. Get serious. Nobody's going to look into forks of a project to see what other people improved. Not even github has a search that good that would show bug fixes and improvements from forks that someone is searching for. How would you even search? (Well, to be honest, maybe Github has, or maybe Copilot can do that kind of search based on a half a…

> Get serious. Nobody's going to look into forks

At this point you just sound like you want to complain. I was saying that opening a PR is a nice way to share a patch, and all you get from it is an opportunity to complain about how difficult it may be to find a patch in a fork.

> Yeah, but if I have moral standards and care about not wasting those interested people's time

This has nothing to do with moral standards. I have benefitted multiple times from old, unmerged, outdated PRs. Because if someone fixes a bug, the valuable part is understanding what is going wrong and how to fix it. An outdated PR saves me that time.

> If I didn't do that, then I would be a hypocrite.

Not at all. You just have a very weird way to look at it.

Re: Open source is not about you (2018)

#195
post #42

> As a user of something open source you are not thereby entitled to anything at all I understand what the author means, but I think that in any human-2-human interaction, we are all entitled to at least basic courtesy. For example, if you show courtesy by contributing to an open source project and following all the guidelines they have, I think it's fair to assume that courtesy will be shown in return. I know that m…

So, probably a dumb question from me, but why are we "all entitled to at least basic courtesy"? What is the "basic courtesy" that everyone has agreed to follow?

> this has nothing to do with open source or software; it's just common sense when dealing with people

Common sense is very different than entitlement. Back to the open source software point of view, your entitlement is described by the license. Basic courtesy, or even the opportunity to interact with anyone, is not included as a part of any open source license I remember. It isn't even a consideration for most [0].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_free_and_open-so...

Re: Open source is not about you (2018)

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know you but I like you. Courtesy costs very little.

I agree with you, but this is one of those things where if you haven't had the experience of being part of a popular open source project, you don't realize how bad the scaling effects are. Let's say courtesy only requires five minutes of my time. There are millions of users of the programming language I work on. Let's say only 0.1% of them desire my courtesy. Even at that small fraction, I'm going to spend 83 hours o…

Yes and if you have o(1000) prs or issues in a single day, I guess you have a different scale of problem and will need to automate triage and management, probably through an ai-powered tool.

Even if it is 0.01% per day it’s still a very high volume. At that point it’s not a hobby. Millions of users maybe would point toward a more formal management and governance approach.

See Gemini-cli for example. Or a bunch of Microsoft projects. They use ai to triage and respond to tickets. (And they pocket veto many of them)

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