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WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

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Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#191

Post by kccqzy »

palata wrote: post #183
kccqzy wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a former Google employee, I had witnessed first hand how powerful the internal privacy working groups were and how much they were able to push back against product teams when they not only demanded more privacy on new features but also invented many of the privacy techniques that made things possible. It’s frankly not even hard to find Google authors of RFCs that meaningfully contribute to Internet privacy. No mat…

Have you heard of Meta opening a port in the Facebook and Instagram apps and sending them tracking data from the browser [1]? Would you say it meaningfully contributes to Internet privacy? Or Google being fined for abuse of their dominant position [2]? Do you think that when you make an LLM request, it uses full homomorphic encryption not to disclose your information? I guess I don't even have to give an example for…

> Have you heard of Meta

Irrelevant.

> Or Google being fined for abuse of their dominant position

Also irrelevant. You are talking about antitrust. I’m talking about privacy.

> Do you think that when you make an LLM request, it uses full homomorphic encryption not to disclose your information?

Irrelevant. I never said anything about LLMs. No one has made LLMs work with homomorphic encryption, but at least I’m glad you know this technique and it is very close to being used in other Google technologies.

> Would you say that Google Search is built in a way that the Google servers cannot associate an IP to its search requests?

I never said anything about Google Search either.

Look, at this point I just stopped reading your comment because it’s a mumbo-jumbo of irrelevant facts.

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#192

Post by eth0up »

SubiculumCode wrote: post #122
notepad0x90 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but things could be refined. With more resources and research thrown at it, it could become more versatile, that's why the title of the post says "could". And chances are, there are private and government entities already doing this. Research like this has been coming out for at least a decade now. Even Xfinity has motion detection in homes using this technique now: https://www.xfinity.com/hub/smart-home/wifi-mo…

This has already been an area of research, both publicly, and most likely in private/government defense research. In a targeted situation, i.e. surveillance of a household of 6, this would work easily enough...but I doubt there is enough information to provide reliable (high AUC) tagging of ID in a public scenario oh hundreds to thousands of individuals.

Xfinity's is sensitive enough to configure for animals or humans under 40-70lbs, I forget the exact number.

From my minimal research, it could be pushed a lot further.

What I'm particularly interested in is the edge case scenario of duplexes and apartments, where neighbors are unwittingly subjected to surveillance. There is little more to their routers than firmware to impart these capabilities. No reason to think it won't become common, and there are a handful of other companies basically offering just this as a service.

Strange times.

Edit: I should have mentioned the obvious, that pesky thing no one wants to address... When AI is added to this tech, it will get grotesque. Gait recognition, behavioral patterning, etc. Not something to sneeze at.

Possibly what was used to watch Maduro, along with synthetic aperture radar etc.

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#193

Post by sneak »

renewiltord wrote: post #79
alexpotato wrote: post #23

Not sure how many people are aware that the newer Alexa devices have "presence detection" that uses ultrasound so they can detect when people are nearby. [0] Heck, even Ecobee remote temperature sensors can do this. Reminds me of the story about how the Google Nest smoke detector had a microphone in it. [1] 0 - https://www.amazon.com/b?node=23435461011&tag=googhydr-20&hv... 1- https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comment…

That reminds me of the other story where the Pixel phones come with a microphone that turns on every time you make a call! The phone actually records audio and sends it remotely to someone else.

...except when trying to dial 911.

https://medium.com/@mmrahman123/how-a-bug-in-android-and-mic...

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#194

Post by palata »

kccqzy wrote: post #191
palata wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you heard of Meta opening a port in the Facebook and Instagram apps and sending them tracking data from the browser [1]? Would you say it meaningfully contributes to Internet privacy? Or Google being fined for abuse of their dominant position [2]? Do you think that when you make an LLM request, it uses full homomorphic encryption not to disclose your information? I guess I don't even have to give an example for…

> Have you heard of Meta Irrelevant. > Or Google being fined for abuse of their dominant position Also irrelevant. You are talking about antitrust. I’m talking about privacy. > Do you think that when you make an LLM request, it uses full homomorphic encryption not to disclose your information? Irrelevant. I never said anything about LLMs. No one has made LLMs work with homomorphic encryption, but at least I’m glad yo…

I can try with fewer words. You say:

> It is tired and lazy to argue that just because some Big Tech has the capability of doing something bad therefore they must already be doing it.

Irrelevant. The comment never said it was "doing something bad", they just said "they know already". Which is most likely to be true. When the user sends a list of nearby WiFis to Google and Google responds with a location, then Google knows where the user is.

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#195

Post by protocolture »

woodrowbarlow wrote: post #184
protocolture wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ISAC means adding mmWave to 6G (ostensibly for speed, but also) to build a high-fidelity 3d realtime "digital twin" of the real world that can see through walls, owned and operated by your telecom provider. "See through walls" There used to be a great video on youtube of a very high power 60GHz signal being blocked by a door. Sad I can never find it. E Band isn't much better. IIRC the 60GHz radio is being left out…

yeah there's some truth here. from what i understand, the radios that give the best "imaging" are also the least resilient for data -- you need basically line-of-sight. and 5G did have some optional ULF "add-ons" that basically never got used because the tradeoffs for speed to signal integrity were poor. it won't start as a mass deployment -- just focused on stadiums, airports, government buildings, etc.; maybe some…

I just dont see the benefit, unless you are installing a 6G device in every room of your house.

Which is probably the target case here. 4G had light adoption by smaller telcos, 5G has some self installable repeaters, but most of the plans for 5G to spread to self installed / class license hardware were all vapourware. 6G might have some backing pushing them into trying to find more ways to sell 6G devices, and having put up a bunch of 6G certified (but class license only) devices in your home, it would be cool if you could see some biometrics, and hook the system into home automation for surveillance and determining whether the lights go on.

But without that in home capability, and massive spread of deployed devices I just dont see the surveillance utility. Especially if your town has lots of awnings and trees.

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#196

Post by AndrewKemendo »

pimterry wrote: post #33
mahrain wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Verizon has a security feature built around this, https://www.xfinity.com/hub/smart-home/wifi-motion Philips WiZ bulbs: https://www.wizconnected.com/en-us/explore-wiz/spacesense Alarm.com also supports such sensors: https://poweredbyalarm.com/eventresources/wp-content/uploads...

There's a big difference between 'presence detection' and 'tracking individuals'. Both in terms of tech and privacy impact.

Yeah Verizon never gives data to the government

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#197

Post by bethekidyouwant »

NetMageSCW wrote: post #116
bethekidyouwant wrote: post #49

I’m not understanding this. You still have to deploy a piece of hardware to read the Wi-Fi waves. Why wouldn’t you just deploy some other piece of hardware that’s better at surveilling the surroundings? Also, if the Wi-Fi device is in the area are not busy now your camera is off that doesn’t seem good. Also, I imagine you have to tune it for every environment, geometry that doesn’t sound easy. And then after all that…

Because a device to receive WiFi signals could be hidden behind a wall outlet with no sign that it is installed?

There’s already specialized systems. They use uwb radar and do a much better job.

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#198

Post by vasco »

K0balt wrote: post #188
vasco wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well nowadays you individually track by using mac addresses and other network information from the devices within range. Cisco has some creepy real time maps of your location with each person walking around and all their previous visits etc

Saw a system like this at a Podunk, nowhere, USA police station over a decade ago. It had high fidelity maps of peoples comings and goings based on Bluetooth and WiFi MAC IIRC. And some kind of API backend to look up identity based on those identifiers, not sure to who. You could for example flag a location (house) and get a list of all of the comings and goings over the last x months, then look them up by identity.…

If you want to not be tracked I wouldn't even trust airplane mode. With just a SIM pinging towers already a lot can be done. With airplane mode I'm just being paranoid but I never tested radio emissions myself with it disabled so I'd just leave my phone at home if I was really worried about it.

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#199

Post by K0balt »

vasco wrote: post #198
K0balt wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saw a system like this at a Podunk, nowhere, USA police station over a decade ago. It had high fidelity maps of peoples comings and goings based on Bluetooth and WiFi MAC IIRC. And some kind of API backend to look up identity based on those identifiers, not sure to who. You could for example flag a location (house) and get a list of all of the comings and goings over the last x months, then look them up by identity.…

If you want to not be tracked I wouldn't even trust airplane mode. With just a SIM pinging towers already a lot can be done. With airplane mode I'm just being paranoid but I never tested radio emissions myself with it disabled so I'd just leave my phone at home if I was really worried about it.

Turning your phone off (airplane mode or power down, which sign out of networks) or lighting up a new one in the same location as an old one was turned off are treated as significant events in these systems and can be configured as an automatic flag for investigation.

If you care, slip it into a faraday bag instead of turning it off or going into airplane mode and you won’t be flagged nearly as likely. People rarely use airplane mode or turn off their phones in situations where it doesn’t provide a useful clue about activity.

There is a huge overlap between surveillance platforms and behavior analysis / data brokers.

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