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After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

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Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#191

Post by throw10920 »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #43
recursivedoubts wrote: post #8

AI is incredibly dangerous because it can do the simple things very well, which prevents new programmers from learning the simple things ("Oh, I'll just have AI generate it") which then prevents them from learning the middlin' and harder and meta things at a visceral level. I'm a CS teacher, so this is where I see a huge danger right now and I'm explicit with my students about it: you HAVE to write the code. You CAN'…

What you as a teacher teach might have to adapt a bit. Teaching how code works is more important than teaching how to code. Most academic computer scientists aren't necessarily very skilled as programmers in any case. At least, I learned most of that after I stopped being an academic myself (Ph. D. and all). This is OK. Learning to program is more of a side effect of studying computer science than it is a core goal (…

> Teaching how code works is more important than teaching how to code.

People learn by doing. There's a reason that "do the textbook problems" is somewhat of a meme in the math and science fields - because that's the way that you learn those things.

I've met someone who said that when he get a textbook, he starts by only doing the problems, and skipping the chapter content entirely. Only when he has significant trouble with the problems (i.e. he's stuck on a single one for several hours) does he read the chapter text.

He's one of the smartest people I know.

This is because you learn by doing the problems. In the software field, that means coding.

Telling yourself that you could code up a solution is very different than actually being able to write the code.

And writing the code is how you build fluency and understanding as to how computers actually work.

> I never did any meaningful amount of assembler programming. It was mostly no longer a relevant skill by the time I studied computer science (94-99). I built an interpreter for an imaginary CPU at some point using a functional programming language in my second year.

Same thing for assembly. Note that you built an interpreter for an imaginary CPU - not a real one, as that would have been a much harder challenge given that you didn't do any meaningful amount of assembly program and didn't understand low-level computer hardware very well.

Obviously, this isn't to say that information about how a system works can't be learned without practice - just that that's substantially harder and takes much more time (probably 3-10x), and I can guarantee you that those doing vibecoding are not putting in that extra time.

Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#192

Post by kaydub »

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #12
simonw wrote: post #9

> Not only does an agent not have the ability to evolve a specification over a multi-week period as it builds out its lower components, it also makes decisions upfront that it later doesn’t deviate from. That's your job. The great thing about coding agents is that you can tell them "change of design: all API interactions need to go through a new single class that does authentication and retries and rate-limit throttl…

> (And the automated test suite will help them confirm that the refactoring worked properly, because naturally you had them construct an automated test suite when they built those original features, right?) I dunno, maybe I have high standards but I generally find that the test suites generated by LLMs are both over and under determined. Over-determined in the sense that some of the tests are focused on implementatio…

Once the agent writes your tests, have another agent review them and ask that agent to look for pointless tests, to make sure testing is around more than just the "happy path", etc. etc.

Just like anything else in software, you have to iterate. The first pass is just to thread the needle.

Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#193

Post by mellosouls »

recursivedoubts wrote: post #8

AI is incredibly dangerous because it can do the simple things very well, which prevents new programmers from learning the simple things ("Oh, I'll just have AI generate it") which then prevents them from learning the middlin' and harder and meta things at a visceral level. I'm a CS teacher, so this is where I see a huge danger right now and I'm explicit with my students about it: you HAVE to write the code. You CAN'…

Sure (knowing the underlying ideas and having proficiency in their application) - but producing software by conducting(?) LLMs is rapidly becoming a wide, deep and must-have skill and the lack thereof will be a weakness in any student entering the workplace.

Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#194

Post by FloorEgg »

recursivedoubts wrote: post #8

AI is incredibly dangerous because it can do the simple things very well, which prevents new programmers from learning the simple things ("Oh, I'll just have AI generate it") which then prevents them from learning the middlin' and harder and meta things at a visceral level. I'm a CS teacher, so this is where I see a huge danger right now and I'm explicit with my students about it: you HAVE to write the code. You CAN'…

AI does have an incredibly powerful influence on learning. It can absolutely be used as a detriment, but it can also be just as powerful of a learning tool. It all comes down to keeping the student in the zone of proximal development.

If AI is used by the student to get the task done as fast as possible the student will miss out on all the learning (too easy).

If no AI is used at all, students can get stuck for long periods of time on either due to mismatches between instructional design and the specific learning context (missing prereq) or by mistakes in instructional design.

AI has the potential to keep all learners within an ideal difficulty for optimal rate of learning so that students learn faster. We just shouldn't be using AI tools for productivity in the learning context, and we need more AI tools designed for optimizing learning ramps.

Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#195

Post by tomtomtom777 »

rich_sasha wrote: post #41

I came to "vibe coding" with an open mind, but I'm slowly edging in the same direction. It is hands down good for code which is laborious or tedious to write, but once done, obviously correct or incorrect (with low effort inspection). Tests help but only if the code comes out nicely structured. I made plenty of tools like this, a replacement REPL for MS-SQL, a caching tool in Python, a matplotlib helper. Things that…

I agree, and like to add,

> It is hands down good for code which is laborious or tedious to write, but once done, obviously correct or incorrect (with low effort inspection).

The problem here is, that it fills in gaps that shouldn't be there in the first place. Good code isn't laborious. Good code is small. We learn to avoid unnecessary abstractions. We learn to minimize "plumbing" such that the resulting code contains little more than clear and readable instructions of what you intend for the computer to do.

The perfect code is just as clear as the design document in describing the intentions, only using a computer language.

If someone is gaining super speeds by providing AI clear design documents compared to coding themselves, maybe they aren't coding the way they should.

Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#196

Post by leesec »

kylehotchkiss wrote: post #147
leesec wrote: post #108

OK. Top AI labs have people using llms for 100% of their code. Enjoy writing by hand tho

"They got more VC than me, therefore they are right". You gotta have a better argument than "AI Labs are eating their own dogfood". Are there any other big software companies doing that successfully? I bet yes, and think those stories carry more weight.

These are the smartest people in tech lol.

Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#197

Post by kaydub »

jihadjihad wrote: post #34
disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (And the automated test suite will help them confirm that the refactoring worked properly, because naturally you had them construct an automated test suite when they built those original features, right?) I dunno, maybe I have high standards but I generally find that the test suites generated by LLMs are both over and under determined. Over-determined in the sense that some of the tests are focused on implementatio…

In my experience asking the model to construct an automated test suite, with no additional context, is asking for a bad time. You'll see tests for a custom exception class that you (or the LLM) wrote that check that the message argument can be overwritten by the caller, or that a class responds to a certain method, or some other pointless and/or tautological test. If you start with an example file of tests that follo…

1 agent writes the tests, threads the needle.

Another agent reviews the tests, finds duplicate code, finds poor testing patterns, looks for tests that are only following the "happy path", ensures logic is actually tested and that you're not wasting time testing things like getters and setters. That agent writes up a report.

Give that report back to the agent that wrote the test or spin up a new agent and feed the report to it.

Don't do all of this blindly, actually read the report to make sure the llm is on the right path. Repeat that one or two times.

Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#198

Post by wklm »

orev wrote: post #27
recursivedoubts wrote: post #8

AI is incredibly dangerous because it can do the simple things very well, which prevents new programmers from learning the simple things ("Oh, I'll just have AI generate it") which then prevents them from learning the middlin' and harder and meta things at a visceral level. I'm a CS teacher, so this is where I see a huge danger right now and I'm explicit with my students about it: you HAVE to write the code. You CAN'…

It’s like weightlifting: sure you can use a forklift to do it, but if the goal is to build up your own strength, using the forklift isn’t going to get you there. This is the ultimate problem with AI in academia. We all inherently know that “no pain no gain” is true for physical tasks, but the same is true for learning. Struggling through the new concepts is essentially the point of it, not just the end result. Of cou…

I like the weightlifting parable!

Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#199

Post by drob518 »

goostavos wrote: post #189
recursivedoubts wrote: post #8

AI is incredibly dangerous because it can do the simple things very well, which prevents new programmers from learning the simple things ("Oh, I'll just have AI generate it") which then prevents them from learning the middlin' and harder and meta things at a visceral level. I'm a CS teacher, so this is where I see a huge danger right now and I'm explicit with my students about it: you HAVE to write the code. You CAN'…

I had my first interview last week where I finally saw this in the wild. It was a student applying for an internship. It was the strangest interview. They had excellent textbook knowledge. They could tell you the space and time complexities of any data structure, but they couldn't explain anything about code they'd written or how it worked. After many painful and confusing minutes of trying to get them to explain, li…

Lots of theory but no practice.

Re: After two years of vibecoding, I'm back to writing by hand

#200

Post by WalterBright »

WalterBright wrote: post #102
recursivedoubts wrote: post #8

AI is incredibly dangerous because it can do the simple things very well, which prevents new programmers from learning the simple things ("Oh, I'll just have AI generate it") which then prevents them from learning the middlin' and harder and meta things at a visceral level. I'm a CS teacher, so this is where I see a huge danger right now and I'm explicit with my students about it: you HAVE to write the code. You CAN'…

I remember reading about a metal shop class, where the instructor started out by giving each student a block of metal, and a file. The student had to file an end wrench out of the block. Upon successful completion, then the student would move on to learning about the machine tools. The idea was to develop a feel for cutting metal, and to better understand what the machine tools were doing. -- My wood shop teacher tau…

Also, in college, I'd follow the derivation that the prof did on the chalkboard, and think I understood it. Then, doing the homework, I'd realize I didn't understand it at all. Doing the homework myself was where the real learning occurred.
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