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‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods to raid

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Re: ‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods to raid

#191

Post by throwawayq3423 »

genidoi wrote: post #63
bri3d wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is my understanding of Palantir too: it's a consultancy with a map, a graph database, and some "AI" nonsense. They sell expensive "forward deployed engineers" (aka, consultants) to customize this map and graph database to specific use cases. I'm not trying to argue Palantir is an ethical company; my views on "company ethics" are nuanced but I wouldn't put them anywhere near my "places I want to work" bucket. But…

Referring to engineers with top secret+ security clearances as "consultants" seems reductionistic.

Ok they are "consultants" with a federally guaranteed moat.

Re: ‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods to raid

#192

Post by tonymet »

periodjet wrote: post #134

Why have we all lost the ability to think in a nuanced way? It’s very disturbing to witness, particularly on a forum like HN, ostensibly populated by smart people. It’s possible to simultaneously believe that ICE has a clear and ethical mandate while also believing that they are going about fulfilling that mandate via bad methods that need to change. It’s possible to simultaneously believe that people shouldn’t be ma…

Sophisticated and nuanced opinions are an embellishment . A badge worn at cocktail parties .

Cleaning up a mess is 1000x messier than making it .

No one will ever care or remember your sophisticated opinion.

That’s why it may be possible to have nuance but it’s just a peacocks feather

Re: ‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods to raid

#193

Post by idle_zealot »

cheese4242 wrote: post #121
idle_zealot wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) You don't deport them, you don't ignore them, you document them. Then you let them live their lives. They're people, not a mold outgrowth that needs culling. 2) Check those stats a bit more closely. The vast majority of "deportations" were people turned away at the border.

Would you support deporting people who are criminals? Or have no intention of ever working and just want to live off various welfare programs? Trying to find some common ground here.

Nope. Access to food, water, shelter, and freedom of movement are fundamental human rights. I'm not a proponent of executing useless eaters. If you commit a crime with a prison sentence then you serve that sentence where you committed the crime.

Re: ‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods to raid

#194

Post by db48x »

ceejayoz wrote: post #59
thatguy0900 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean you can say stuff like that but the reality is they purposefully named themselves after a super villains magical spy apparatus so I'm not inclined to take his word about them being ethically neutral. Like I'm not really sure what they could name themselves after that would be more ominous

> they purposefully named themselves after a super villains magical spy apparatus… Worse, that spy apparatus inherently corrupts its users .

That's a common misunderstanding. The Palantir never corrupted anyone. They only became dangerous to use once Sauron got his hands on one. You know, that immortal demon god who always uses mind control to get what he wants? If you use a Palantir he’ll notice and start working you over. If he is stronger than you are then he can force your Palantir to show you things of his choosing.

When Denethor used Gondor’s Palantir he saw orc armies marching and pillaging, foundaries forging weapons, Southrons marching north with Oliphants, corsairs raiding the coast, wildmen pillaging Rohan, etc, etc. Sauron never let him see allies coming to his aid, or his own troops winning battles.

Re: ‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods to raid

#195

Post by db48x »

immibis wrote: post #170
ahazred8ta wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The palantirs were made by the elf lord prince Fëanor of Valinor, one of the good guys. The one we see in the film was given to the kings of Gondor and then pilfered by Saruman. (elvish palan 'far', tir 'watch over')

So it's literally the Elvish word for "television"...

Telescope, not television.

Re: ‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods to raid

#196

Post by bri3d »

jcranmer wrote: post #182
bri3d wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is Palantir a loophole? I see this theory a lot (sometimes to justify their valuation, sometimes as a moral judgement, sometimes as an alarmist concern) but I genuinely don't see how this line of thought works in any of these dimensions. My understanding is that they're consultants building overpriced data processing products. As far as I know there isn't even usually a separate legal entity or some kind of corpo…

> How is Palantir a loophole? The big legal loophole is that the government needs a particularized warrant (per the 4th Amendment) to ask for any user data, but if the government buys commercial data, well, there's no warrant needed. I would also submit that it's possible that sending everything through a giant computer-magic-bullshit-mixer allows you to discriminate on the basis of race while claiming plausible deni…

> The big legal loophole is that the government needs a particularized warrant (per the 4th Amendment) to ask for any user data, but if the government buys commercial data, well, there's no warrant needed.

Right; but as far as I know Palantir don't sell commercial data. That's my beef with this whole Palantir conspiracy theory. I am far from pro-Palantir but it really feels like they're working as a shield for the pitchforks in this case.

Re: ‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods to raid

#197

Post by tick_tock_tick »

Altern4tiveAcc wrote: post #177
periodjet wrote: post #134

Why have we all lost the ability to think in a nuanced way? It’s very disturbing to witness, particularly on a forum like HN, ostensibly populated by smart people. It’s possible to simultaneously believe that ICE has a clear and ethical mandate while also believing that they are going about fulfilling that mandate via bad methods that need to change. It’s possible to simultaneously believe that people shouldn’t be ma…

> It’s possible to simultaneously believe that ICE has a clear and ethical mandate ... "We" (a lot of people, not everyone who posts here) don't believe that. Lots of people disagree with immigration control as a concept period. The existence of that app is an abomination; the fact tax payer money is being allocated to it is tragicomic. Not spending it and just giving it as tax returns to the population would be so m…

> ... "We" (a lot of people, not everyone who posts here) don't believe that. Lots of people disagree with immigration control as a concept period.

I mean sure but you have to acknowledge that is an extremely fringe belief that basically no one in the USA supports. The debate is on "how" it's being done not that we shouldn't have immigration control.

Re: ‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods to raid

#198

Post by cheese4242 »

kevinsundar wrote: post #112
cheese4242 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The person you are referring to rammed an ICE agent with their vehicle and the agent suffered internal bleeding as a result. Sorry but there is no scenario where you can strike law enforcement with your car after being repeatedly ordered to exit your vehicle where their wouldn't be a justifiable use of lethal force. Trying to frame it as "shoot U.S. civilians in the face for not listening" is extremely disingenuous.

So the “ICE agent” presented identification to her showing he was law enforcement? Nope. Oh so he got out of a vehicle marked as ICE? Nope. Do you want to live in a country where an unidentified masked individual with a gun can say “im a fed”, stop a car and force someone out without proper ID? That’s what you’re in support of. I’d say one would have a right to self defense. Also internal bleeding was literally just…

This is such a bizarre argument because the entire reason the two women were there in the first place is because they thought they were following ICE agents. Both women were part of "ICE Watch", an anti-ICE activist group. They had been following the agents around throughout the day, attempting to disrupt them, which is why the car was parked perpendicular in the street (to block the ICE vehicles) prior to the incident.

So to claim the women didn't know it was Federal law enforcement ordering them to exit the vehicle is baffling to me because that was the entire reason the women were there in the first place.

Re: ‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods to raid

#199

Post by [deleted] »

smokel wrote: post #148
periodjet wrote: post #134

Why have we all lost the ability to think in a nuanced way? It’s very disturbing to witness, particularly on a forum like HN, ostensibly populated by smart people. It’s possible to simultaneously believe that ICE has a clear and ethical mandate while also believing that they are going about fulfilling that mandate via bad methods that need to change. It’s possible to simultaneously believe that people shouldn’t be ma…

The core issue is not that people cannot think with nuance, but that nuance is costly and poorly rewarded.

[deleted]

Re: ‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods to raid

#200

Post by jakelazaroff »

bri3d wrote: post #196
jcranmer wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is Palantir a loophole? The big legal loophole is that the government needs a particularized warrant (per the 4th Amendment) to ask for any user data, but if the government buys commercial data, well, there's no warrant needed. I would also submit that it's possible that sending everything through a giant computer-magic-bullshit-mixer allows you to discriminate on the basis of race while claiming plausible deni…

> The big legal loophole is that the government needs a particularized warrant (per the 4th Amendment) to ask for any user data, but if the government buys commercial data, well, there's no warrant needed. Right; but as far as I know Palantir don't sell commercial data. That's my beef with this whole Palantir conspiracy theory. I am far from pro-Palantir but it really feels like they're working as a shield for the pi…

Pretty sure GP is saying that the data Palantir sells are commercial because they're being sold by Palantir.
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