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The UK is shaping a future of precrime and dissent management (2025)

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Re: The UK is shaping a future of precrime and dissent management (2025)

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The empirical evidence from the US does not bear that out. Compare murder rates between the US and any peer country with more gun control.

Most of the murders (homicides) in the USA are committed using illegal weapons. Banning legal weapons wouldn't reduce crime, it would just make it harder for victims to defend themselves. Besides, USA is not a good example. According to Wikipedia [1], high murder rate statistics in the USA are skewed due to the overrepresentation of one specific part of the population, which is not that common in comparable countries…

> Most of the murders (homicides) in the USA are committed using illegal weapons

Hardly relevant. If you control guns better, you get fewer illegal weapons as well. Most of the murders in Europe are committed by illegal weapons as well.

> Banning legal weapons wouldn't reduce crime

Of course it would - see the reduction in gun violence in countries where this has been implemented.

> Besides, USA is not a good example. According to Wikipedia [1], high murder rate statistics in the USA are skewed due to the overrepresentation of one specific part of the population

Oh. You're one of those.

It's a peculiarly American thing to try first to look to race to try to understand something, when there are more salient correlations.

Presumably since Black Americans are overrepresented as victims of gun violence, you'd like to see a significantly higher proportion carrying guns?

Re: The UK is shaping a future of precrime and dissent management (2025)

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He was of the opinion that the best thing for the UK economy was Brexit, and that the the best team to carry out that out was to be headed by Boris Johnson. Not exactly. I think you need to listen to the interviews. Dominic Cummins has solid rationale for why he believes what he believes. I would need to listen to them again to remember what he said, but what you are describing was too simplistic. Also his opinions…

> That has never been his opinion. There are many interviews with him on YouTube and I suggest you listen to them. I've viewed and read an interminable number of interviews with Cummings. He decided that a) Brexit was a good idea (we can see how that turned out), b) he decided to help get a Johnson government elected, and c) joined his administration as de facto chief of staff and chief advisor. If that's not a tacit…

> I've viewed and read an interminable number of interviews with Cummings.

The statements you have made don't really line up with the interviews I've listened to.

The context around the events and what his involvement was and was not, is important.

You are leaving out key information that he mentioned in many interview appearances.

> He decided that a) Brexit was a good idea (we can see how that turned out)

Without re-litigating everything. It may have been different if the politicians and those that worked for them hadn't frustrated the process. I was genuinely disgusted by the attitudes that many of the politicians had after the Leave won. That was my interpretation of what happened. Your obviously differs.

It also says nothing about the validity of his other statements, which is what I was referring to.

> b) he decided to help get a Johnson government elected

Yes, but the way you are talking about it is omitting events both before and after the 2019 General Election.

Theresa May had been ousted by the Conservative Leadership. Earlier she ran an awful election campaign, squandered a huge lead in the polls and had to form a coalition Government with the DUP to maintain a majority.

Cummins said he was contacted by Johnson because Johnson had a minority government and couldn't call a re-election. His first job was to get Johnson out of that Quagmire, then prepare for re-election. He decided to help Johnson under certain guarantees / conditions. Which tells me that he didn't actually trust Johnson.

He claims to have been gradually forced out by Carrie Johnson and his team shortly after the election.

If you are being hampered by the Prime Minster's wife on the agenda that you are supposed to implement. It is likely to fail.

I've actually experienced something similar in my career where I was being blocked (for political reasons) by another team. It makes getting anything done impossible.

So there is no reason to believe he is lying, back tracking or retconning events.

This is because his statements about Carrie Johnson's involvement line up with other accounts from other people that I've heard during the time period shortly after his departure.

> c) joined his administration as de facto chief of staff and chief advisor. If that's not a tacit approval of Johnson and his government, then what is? Of course, he backtracked later when it was a disaster.

It not about it being an approval or disapproval of his government. Often you must work with people that you would rather not to, to achieve things.

His feelings about the Johnson government doesn't change his the validity of his statements about how Whitehall operate while he was present.

His comments about ossified organisations lines up with my past experience of working in both ossified Public and Private orgs.

His account of the events around COVID match up with the timeline of events, and I re-watched old interviews of him and he hasn't backtracked at all or changed his story around what happened. He has mentioned things he couldn't mention at the time e.g. his residence was broken into and he was advised not to mention this at the time.

I have no reason to not believe him, since his statements match up with both what I have experienced and a known timeline of events.

I think your dislike of Cummins and his involvement with Vote Leave. As a result is clouding your judgement on the validity of his statements about how Boris Johnson behaved and how Whitehall operates.

Generally there is a lot of stuff in his interviews that I've seen that quite honestly changed my opinion of him (which was somewhat negative). I believe he is telling the truth.

Re: The UK is shaping a future of precrime and dissent management (2025)

#193
I wonder how many people are actually from the UK on these threads. There is always comments about "diversity" and "grooming rape gangs" and how everything labour do is bad, or about how the UK is an oppressive regime or somehow fundamentally anti-freedom. This always reads like fear mongering / Russian psy-ops propaganda to me.

I have many bones to pick with the UK government but a large number of people sprinting to these talking points at every chance they get is highly suspicious to me.

Re: The UK is shaping a future of precrime and dissent management (2025)

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Total Reform + Conservative vote was at historical lows as a percentage of the electorate.

That might be true, but the votes (not seats, first past the post, almost guarantees people aren't represented): Labour: 9.7M Conservatives 6.8M Reform: 4.1M Liberal Democrats 3.5M The point clearly stands that had Reform not been a thing, 2024 would have been a conservative landslide. What we got was a Labour landslide, what we should have got was some coalition.

Yes, though I'd be careful about assuming that votes are Conservatives Reform on a left-right median voter model. The other aspect that Reform has (and will have at least until it forms a government) is anti-system/populist credentials. Labour had a little of that last time (they are a deeply establishment party, especially under current leadership, but they were coming off a period as very public opposition to the government and the current state of things) but will have very little next time.

It's certainly not a given that all the 2024 Reform vote would have gone to the Conservatives: a good chunk of it would have likely been disgusted abstention, another chunk to other anti-system parties (mostly of the right fringe, I suspect, but not excluding the Greens despite wild ideological differences), and likely a further (if smaller) chunk to other parties which were simply not the Conservatives (including Labour and the Lib Dems).

Edit: the best analysis on this is likely to be in the latest volume of the long-standing The British General Election of XXXX series, which has just been published online[0]. I haven't had time to look at it yet, though.

[0]: https://doi.org/10.1007/978-3-031-95952-3

Re: The UK is shaping a future of precrime and dissent management (2025)

#195
post #71
post #48

> The focus of policing is also shifting. As street crime continues to fall, more attention is directed toward protest, dissent, and the perceived risk of unrest. Does street crime in fact continue to fall? I keep hearing about bicycles getting stolen, or how in London, mobile phones get snatched. It was also common to hear how police fails to prosecute various kinds of crime (usually mentioned in contrast to how the…

Anecdote is not data. It is both true that the police absolutely suck at handling petty crime, and the Met have a fairly terrible reputation; and that more serious violent crime is much, much less of a problem in London than it used to be (and less than US cities, of course).

So far, I have never seen any article or even comment online explain explicitly why this is the case.

Almost everyone can see quite visibly that crime is not decreasing but then you have people with a clear political and financial motive saying: the stats, you are just a loon or (even worse) someone who might not be from London.

If you read the best source on this, hospital admissions, you will see that ~95% of the drop in "violent crime" is due to decreases in alcohol consumption. That is it. Ex this impact and in relative terms, violent crime in cities has been increasing significantly. And violent crime is supposed to be the rare subset of crime when, obviously, other categories of crime are generally increasing.

Btw, the group that publishes this data is also (strangely) unwilling to make this known and, afaik, do not include this information in press releases.

The other factor is that the composition of London's population has naturally changed over the last ten years. As London has continued to dominate economically, the poor have been emptied out from certain areas contributing greatly to a reduction in crime stats (and, unfortunately, an increase elsewhere in the country). For example, Camden has seen a huge reduction in violent crime, is this a surprise? If you look at areas that have stayed the same, crime has got worse (again, in relative terms/ex the above factors, crime in the UK is falling in many areas and rising in others).

I will say this another way: data is not collected fairly or accurately. There are massive political and financial incentives against accurate data. In London, this has always been the case because it is not possible to win elections in some areas in London with high crime if you admit that crime is high in those areas...you have to blame society. Twenty years ago, you had the same thing: city has never been safer, politicians doing so well, Met doing so well...once you have seen this a few times, you should start to wonder whether it is true...particularly as the current line is that crime was rampant twenty years ago...when it obviously wasn't. Anecdotes will always tend to represent the reality better than data which is produced for political purposes (and I think people know this, the stats exist in part so that people can hop online and say that everyone is doing a great job, you see the same thing online with central government...it is very weird).

Re: The UK is shaping a future of precrime and dissent management (2025)

#196

I'm aware this is a cultural difference, government betrayal and overreach are hotbutton and mainstay topics in the common culture of the UK and related states (e.g. the US). It is nevertheless so weird to me that rather than trying to monitor and mitigate the abuses of legal instruments like the ones proposed, people are trying to prevent and abolish things wholesale. Everything is depicted as a slippery slope to ab…

People are seemingly very unhappy with the status quo, but also even unhappier when the Government tries to legislate around real issues. For example, people in hacker news seem to bring up grooming rape gangs specifically when talking about "Diversity" in the UK as a cudgel when the UK tries to introduce safety laws.

Meanwhile some of the most prolific child abusers are being sent to jail (who happened to be young 20s and white) who were only enabled to abuse hundreds of young people over a matter of months due to online platforms.

The latter example is the type of thing the UK Government is trying to tackle. The abuse is rife, but people would rather talk about "Diversity" and complain about laws clearly designed to protect children.

Do I want the laws? No. But other people have ruined it, and now we no longer live in a high trust society. I certainly want something that will try to lower the abuse women and children face from the Internet (and men).

Re: The UK is shaping a future of precrime and dissent management (2025)

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I am willing to bet that on top of the chilling effect on regular people, it will only act as an inconvenience for the bad actors as they will find ways to circumvent it. Controlling the online discourse is far too valuable, they are not going to just shrug and give up because the government puts up a barrier.

What chilling effect? Have you seen what people post on facebook under their own name.

Meet selection bias. Self-censorship is very common.

Re: The UK is shaping a future of precrime and dissent management (2025)

#198

This is how you govern from a position of unpopularity. The government knows they’re on the wrong side of many issues, to the point they know they can’t win an open debate. So media control, regulation by enforcement, and institutional control becomes the focus of effort.

There seems to be a prevalent notion within UK establishment circles, "we are being attacked from both sides, therefore we must be right/balanced/fair", which is totally not how it works. You see used for example to defend the supposed impartiality of the BBC.

The "eating shit" fallacy as I like to call it.

Just because a fascist and a communist agree that eating shit is bad, doesn't mean that eating shit is a good idea.

Re: The UK is shaping a future of precrime and dissent management (2025)

#199

This is how you govern from a position of unpopularity. The government knows they’re on the wrong side of many issues, to the point they know they can’t win an open debate. So media control, regulation by enforcement, and institutional control becomes the focus of effort.

Why is it happening in the UK though? Why does their government think that they need this?
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