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The rise of industrial software

chrisloy.dev

191–200 of 201 posts

Re: The rise of industrial software

#191
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't need to repeat anything for software. Software can be copied arbitrarily for no practical cost. ...Or so think devs. People responsible for operating software, as well as people responsible for maintaining it, may have different opinions. Bugs must be fixed, underlying software/hardware changes and vulnerabilities get discovered, and so versions must be bumped. The surrounding ecosystem changes, and so, e…

You're describing maintenance of existing software or even existing deployments that's a completely different beast. I am certain cost can go down there, but that will only compete against SaaS where the marginal cost of adding another customer is already zero.

> You're describing maintenance of existing software or even existing deployments that's a completely different beast.

Yeah, that's a part of software that's often overlooked by software developers.

Re: The rise of industrial software

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You get the exact same browser, database server and (whatsapp/signal/telegram/whatever) messenger client as basically everyone else. Hey! I'm going to passionately defend my choice over a really minor difference. I mean do you see how that app does their hamburger menu?! It makes the app utterly unusable! Maybe I'm exaggerating here but I've heard things pretty close in "chrome vs Firefox" and "signal vs ..." threa…

> It just creates entrenched players and monopolies in domains where it should be near trivial to move (browsers are definitely trivial to jump ship) I think this is understating the cost of jumping. Basically zero users care about the "technological" elements of their browser (e.g. the render engine, JS engine, video codecs) so long as it offers feature equivalence, but they do care a lot about comparatively "minor"…

Yeah I think you're right. That it's the little things that get people upset rather than the big things weirdly enough. But I think people should have a bit more introspection. Are their complaints things they seriously care about or justifies for their choices. Can they themselves differentiate. It might seem obvious but the easiest person to fool is yourself and we're all experts at it.

Re: The rise of industrial software

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's like thinking the greatest barrier to producing the next great Russian literary novel is not speaking Russian. The article is very clearly not saying anything like that. It's saying the greatest barrier to making throwaway comments on Russian social media is not speaking Russian. Roughly the entire article is about LLMs making it much cheaper to make low quality software. It's not about masterpieces. And I thi…

I don't think it's "low quality" software, it's "low value" software.

Yeah, that's right. Although it's a bit of both. Vibe coded stuff above a certain size is mostly low quality code even if the software is perfectly reasonable because it hasn't fallen over due to the code issues stacking up yet, and as it gets a bit bigger it becomes low quality software as well.

Re: The rise of industrial software

#194

One thing that has become clearer to me over the years is that reasoning by analogy (like this article does) sounds a lot smarter than it is. If you look from first principles, it's clear that physical goods and software don't share the same properties and thus the analogy falls apart. Physical goods like clothes or cars have variable costs . The marginal unit always costs > 0, and thus the price to the consumer is a…

Digital goods do have a marginal cost. It's a lot lower than with physical goods, but there is a cost: at the very minimum, a digital good takes up storage space. A streamed digital good requires bandwidth and electricity (and in most of the world, both are metered resources). Also, most consumers don't choose on quality; they choose on price. This is why free mobile games became huge and paid mobile games are a dyin…

> storage space...

You don't need to explain this. Literally everyone here knows what you said, and everyone - including you - knew that he also knew that.

This is pointless and annoying nitpicking.

Re: The rise of industrial software

#195
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what Cantrill is getting at here is that a running program necessarily consists of both code and hardware. If the software is missing, the hardware will be idling. If the hardware is not present, then the software will be just bytes on a storage device. It's only the combination of hardware and software that makes a working system. What software developers produce is not a machine by itself. It's at most a bl…

> I think what Cantrill is getting at here is that a running program necessarily consists of both code and hardware. "The thing that is remarkable about it is that it has this property of being information—that we made it up—but it is also machine, and it has these engineered properties. And this is where software is unlikely anything we have ever done, and we're still grappling on that that means. What does it mean…

Yes, the point I was making (and as you point out, have been making for the last quarter century) is that we err when not making this realization -- and indeed, I think the linked piece is exactly backwards because it doesn't understand this. That is, the piece views a world of LLM-authored/-assisted software as "industrialized" when I view it as the opposite of this: because software costs nothing to replicate (because the blueprints are the machine!), pre-LLM ("handcrafted") software is already tautologically industrialized. Lowering the barrier to entry of software with LLMs serves to allow for more bespoke software -- and it is, if anything, a kind of machine-assisted de-industrialization of software.

Re: The rise of industrial software

#196
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you still needed the captain driving the ship. The question is more what becomes of all the rowers when you’re switching from captain + 100 rowers to captain + steam engine They’re not all going to get their own boat and captain hat

>They’re not all going to get their own boat and captain hat Why not? Anyone can load up Claude code and start trial and erroring until they get something that works and has similar reliability to accepted software … what is the stat about 1 bug per 10 lines of code on average? I am meeting a lot of non coders telling me about their projects they are getting AI to do for them, stuff to help land title something or ot…

> Everyone is the captain now

Everyone wants to be but I don’t think there will be enough seats. There are people doing boilerplate and simple CRUD stuff - they’re not going to switch to farming. Reckon this will lead to more competition for same number of senior seats

Re: The rise of industrial software

#197
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my own experience (and from everything I’ve read), LLMs as they are today don’t help us as an industry build a higher mountain of software because they don’t help us deal with complexity — they only help us build the mountain faster.

I see this response a lot but I think it's self-contradictory. Building faster, understanding faster, refactoring faster — these do allow skilled developers to work on bigger things. When it takes you one minute instead of an hour to find the answer to a question about how something works, of course that lets you build something more complex. Could you say more about what you think it would look like for LLMs to genu…

> I see this response a lot but I think it's self-contradictory. Building faster, understanding faster, refactoring faster — these do allow skilled developers to work on bigger things. When it takes you one minute instead of an hour to find the answer to a question about how something works, of course that lets you build something more complex.

I partially agree. While LLMs don't magically increase a human's mental capacity, but they do allow a given human to explore the search space of e.g. abstractions faster than they otherwise could before they run out of time or patience.

But (to use GGP's metaphor) do LLMs increase the ultimate height of the software mountain at which complexity grinds everything to a halt?

To be more precise, this is point at which the cost of changing the system gets prohibitively high because any change you make will likely break something else. Progress becomes impossible.

Do current LLMs help us here? No, they don't. It's widely known that if you vibe code something, you'll pretty quickly hit a wall where any change you ask the LLM to make will break something else. To reliably make changes to a complex system, a human still needs to really grok what's going on.

Since the complexity ceiling is a function of human mental capacity, there are two ways to raise that ceiling:

1. Reduce cognitive load by building high-leverage abstractions and tools (e.g. compilers, SQL, HTTP)

2. Find a smarter person/machine to do the work (i.e. some future form of AI)

So while current LLMs might help us do #1 faster, they don't fundamentally alter the complexity landscape, not yet.

Re: The rise of industrial software

#198
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this response a lot but I think it's self-contradictory. Building faster, understanding faster, refactoring faster — these do allow skilled developers to work on bigger things. When it takes you one minute instead of an hour to find the answer to a question about how something works, of course that lets you build something more complex. Could you say more about what you think it would look like for LLMs to genu…

> I see this response a lot but I think it's self-contradictory. Building faster, understanding faster, refactoring faster — these do allow skilled developers to work on bigger things. When it takes you one minute instead of an hour to find the answer to a question about how something works, of course that lets you build something more complex. I partially agree. While LLMs don't magically increase a human's mental c…

Thanks for replying! I disagree that current LLMs can't help build tooling that improves rigor and lets you manage greater complexity. However, I agree that most people are not doing this. Some threads from a colleague on this topic:

https://bsky.app/profile/sunshowers.io/post/3mbcinl4eqc2q

https://bsky.app/profile/sunshowers.io/post/3mbftmohzdc2q

https://bsky.app/profile/sunshowers.io/post/3mbflladlss26

Re: The rise of industrial software

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think what Cantrill is getting at here is that a running program necessarily consists of both code and hardware. "The thing that is remarkable about it is that it has this property of being information—that we made it up—but it is also machine, and it has these engineered properties. And this is where software is unlikely anything we have ever done, and we're still grappling on that that means. What does it mean…

Yes, the point I was making (and as you point out, have been making for the last quarter century) is that we err when not making this realization -- and indeed, I think the linked piece is exactly backwards because it doesn't understand this. That is, the piece views a world of LLM-authored/-assisted software as "industrialized" when I view it as the opposite of this: because software costs nothing to replicate (beca…

> Lowering the barrier to entry of software with LLMs serves to allow for more bespoke software -- and it is, if anything, a kind of machine-assisted de-industrialization of software.

Instead of people downloading / purchasing the same bits for a particular piece of software which is cookie cutter like a two-piece from Men's Suite Warehouse, we can ask LLM for custom bit of code: everyone getting a garment from Savile Row.

Re: The rise of industrial software

#200
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh. Your statement was probably hyperbole? But just back of the napkin: If we use about 20 TW today, in a thousand years of 5% growth we’d be at about 3x10^34. I think the sun is around 3.8x10^26 watts? That gives us about 8x10^7 suns worth of energy consumption in 1000 years. If we figure 0.004 stars per cubic light-year, we end up in that ballpark in a thousand years of uniform spherical expansion at C. But that a…

He said light cone, so not all of the energy of the sun.

The sun a few minutes from now is in its entirety within our light cone. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_cone
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