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I'm returning my Framework 16

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Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#191

Post by idle_zealot »

Levitating wrote: post #104
comte7092 wrote: post #8

I appreciate the authors thoughtful review here, but I can’t help but be frustrated by the constant lack of understanding of the core value proposition of framework both in this post and in many comments here on hn. Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine, and only…

Right? People claim that the pricing is "absurd" as if they're forced to buy it. Framework offers repairable laptops at a fixed price. To some the repairability adds enough value to warrant the higher prices, to some it doesn't. (As well as customizability and mainline Linux kernel support). I've found that if you're in the habit of repairing laptops, Frameworks may come cheap to you as you might have spare storage a…

> Right? People claim that the pricing is "absurd" as if they're forced to buy it.

What is the implication of this? You're not allowed to criticize a product unless you're being forced to buy it? What is the list of companies you're allowed to levy any critiques of, then? Your electricity provider? You could always move, right?

Is this the mentality that leads people to only ever criticize government power and let all others off the hook?

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#192

Post by dangus »

comte7092 wrote: post #8

I appreciate the authors thoughtful review here, but I can’t help but be frustrated by the constant lack of understanding of the core value proposition of framework both in this post and in many comments here on hn. Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine, and only…

One of the issues with the 16 is it’s just a way worse value proposition than the 13.

The 13 is great. I’d even go as far as calling it a good deal, cheap even, especially if you DIY and bring your own memory and storage.

The 16 just gets badly outclassed by alternatives.

I think the problem is that once you get into that big laptop territory people start wanting more specific use cases like gaming or other performance metrics. There has to be a reason to want a big bulky laptop.

Plus, bigger laptops more frequently come with better repeatability.

I also find that there’s a lot more PC competition in the 15-16” screen sizes. The framework 13” is actually uniquely small/light. The Framework 16” is somewhat worse packaging than its competitors.

The 16” really needs to have an option for a 5070Ti and 5080.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#193

Post by esseph »

osigurdson wrote: post #175
justin66 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think ultimately what frustrates me is that people don’t consider the ability to repair or upgrade your machine part of a “premium” experience, but that’s is just something I have to accept. I think it is unfortunate that our consumerist culture places so little value on it though. Buying one of the original Frameworks and a Macbook Air at roughly the same time made me realize how little I actually care about upg…

Agree. I want rock solid Linux compatibility with mac like hardware quality / battery life and a Thinkpad like toughness and keyboard. I don't really need it to be upgradable as long as it lasts 8 years.

This is exactly what I want.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#194

Post by easygenes »

brokencode wrote: post #9
ndiddy wrote: post #4

I dual boot Asahi and Mac OS X on my Macbook Air, and haven't had any problems with suspend. IMO the two biggest problems are lack of USB-C display output (although this is less of a problem with the Macbook Pro since you can use HDMI) and having to deal with x86 emulation (inherent to an ARM laptop). It seems like he's looking for a PC laptop with Apple build quality and display quality, and there definitely aren't…

Just curious in case somebody knows. Are OLED displays in laptops bad at low light? He cites that as a reason he doesn’t want OLED, but I’ve never noticed such a problem on OLED phones.

I'd say the inverse is true: OLEDs are the best in low light, as they generally dim well and black means zero illumination of the pixel. Author is ill-informed. Also, OLED burn-in is a non-issue with current displays in any normal situation (e.g. not a kiosk or arcade or other sort of always-on static dashboard).

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#195

Post by trinsic2 »

osigurdson wrote: post #175
justin66 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think ultimately what frustrates me is that people don’t consider the ability to repair or upgrade your machine part of a “premium” experience, but that’s is just something I have to accept. I think it is unfortunate that our consumerist culture places so little value on it though. Buying one of the original Frameworks and a Macbook Air at roughly the same time made me realize how little I actually care about upg…

Agree. I want rock solid Linux compatibility with mac like hardware quality / battery life and a Thinkpad like toughness and keyboard. I don't really need it to be upgradable as long as it lasts 8 years.

IMHO I dont think people are considering what you lose when you cant upgrade, You get locked in to a device artificially created life cycle that's dictated by the manufacturer.

I understand where you are coming from, I guess it just makes me sad to see more and more people moving away from tech that is less in their control. And i consider upgradability and modularity and important aspect of that.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#196

Post by orthoxerox »

comte7092 wrote: post #8

I appreciate the authors thoughtful review here, but I can’t help but be frustrated by the constant lack of understanding of the core value proposition of framework both in this post and in many comments here on hn. Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine, and only…

If I wanted the innards of my laptop to be upgradable, I would want the only part of it that would stay with me for the next decade or two (the chassis) to be damn near perfect.

There's a reason why there are enthusiasts making custom motherboards and screen adapters for old-school (seven-row) ThinkPads. These things were built like a German executive sedan.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#197

Post by ericd »

Pet_Ant wrote: post #88
kec wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you could just buy a MacBook Air for like $900 (or one of the windows snapdragon machines, but it you care about avoiding Intel I’m assuming you want Linux and doubt the support is as good as asahi on Macs)

I mean, this could literally be the last laptop shell, screen, keyboard and power adapter you ever buy. That's a fantastic sustainability story. Not to mention that if it dies you are never at risk of having to replace the whole thing unless it melts in a fire.

In the context of the massive amount of throwaway packaging involved in the food supply chain, or every other part of the supply chain for every consumable we use, how big a deal is that? Are electronics uniquely impactful in terms of sustainability versus eg plastic clamshells to transport apples?

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#198

Post by _zoltan_ »

casenmgreen wrote: post #36
Numerlor wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Value wise when trying to spec out my personal Lenovo laptop on framework, it'd never get anywhere close to being worth it even if I completely made use of the hardware after a future upgrade. Framework makes sense if you're going in on the sustainability idea, but other than that it's really just an expensive laptop that's not compelling against its competitors

I can swap out my mobo for a RISC-V mobo, or ARM. Get away from Intel and management engine.

nobody ever does. maybe 2 people on the planet...

for everybody else, a Mac is perfect ;-)

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#199

Post by deryilz »

Rebelgecko wrote: post #106
The_President wrote: post #32

Sorry your product experience was sub-par. We have four of the various revisions and the quality is on par with the other laptops in the price bracket. Framework versus MacBook - Not even a comparison - One of them you can do whatever you want with, and the other not so much. Linux is the best option for these computers, as with Windozers the battery life is worse. Baseline CPU idle on a clean linux install is like 0…

My Framework seems to get worse battery life on Linux than Windows. Different tools like powertop help close the gap, but inevitably if I put the framework in a bag for a week, it'll be dead when I take it out

If you're going to put it in a bag for a week, why not use some kind of hibernation feature?

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#200

Post by _cenw »

Hackbraten wrote: post #171
_cenw wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I feel the same. When I learned that Framework started sponsoring DHH's distro, my immediate thought was that I'm not going to buy anything from them ever again. On the other hand, you can boycott only so many companies before you start boycotting yourself out of existence. One has to draw the line somewhere. I just hope Framework is going to come to its senses and eventually stop supporting distros that are controll…

I actually agree with boycotts not being effective. I'm not exactly boycotting Framework - but I will not accept getting less value than I could get elsewhere for the signaling power for repairability anymore. I'm clearly very misaligned with their politics now, and Nirav wouldn't even address these concerns head-on (there is a thread; he posted in it; he hasn't mentioned Omarchy, RubyCon or DHH with one word).

It's unfortunate I feel similarly (though less strong) about Louis Rossman/FUTO, because I like it when right to repair has strong advocates.

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