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The Going Dark initiative or ProtectEU is a Chat Control 3.0 attempt

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Re: The Going Dark initiative or ProtectEU is a Chat Control 3.0 attempt

#191

Post by hellofriend_ »

izacus wrote: post #40
holoduke wrote: post #7

I once liked the EU. Well still do it because of the east to travel without borders. But it's leadership is something dangerous and may shape to some form of dictatorship or entity that does not serve its people. But a small minority consisting out of some large companies.

This is a proposal from one wing of polititians that still hasn't even passed a basic voting process in EU parliament. So what exactly are you screeching about? Which nation on this world has leadership that never proposes anything like this? Which one is 100% pure and noone even thinks about bad things to bring up to a vote?

We should absolutely be “screeching” about any attempt to push or rebrand chat control. You’re framing it as some sort of business as usual type situation where a dumbass politician does a thing. Absolutely not the case and you’re either uninformed or a bad actor. There’s layers of lobbying, corruption and ideology to unpack here https://mullvad.net/en/blog/mullvad-vpn-present-and-then

Re: The Going Dark initiative or ProtectEU is a Chat Control 3.0 attempt

#192

Post by vbezhenar »

Jigsy wrote: post #153

The problem with "child abuse" is that some countries classify drawing things as "child abuse," or "rape," or "animal abuse." (Something I don't agree with.) I mentioned in another thread a few weeks back that I got raided by the British police last February for "uploading/downloading "illegal" anime artwork on one of the (anime) artwork websites we're criminally investigating." (Yes, the British police are criminall…

What's the point of criminalising hand-made pictures? I just don't understand it. I could understand the point of criminalising child porn photos, as producing these photos obviously requires violating other laws (actually not obviously, as you can dress adult actors to look like children, but whatever). But things that are obviously drawn without any involvement of real children, what's wrong with them? Just keep them away from general public (honestly any moderation will do that just fine) and weirdos who wants this stuff will find it and discharge their libido in a peaceful way.

To me, it looks counter-productive to actual child safety... It's like criminalising porn pictures to protect women? Makes no sense.

Re: The Going Dark initiative or ProtectEU is a Chat Control 3.0 attempt

#193

Post by robertlagrant »

idle_zealot wrote: post #150
amelius wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck convincing people not to vote for anti-immigration measures and other populist ideas instead.

You can absolutely frame enshrining privacy and punishing those who would spy on you in a populist way. The messaging writes itself. The problem is that anti-power populism is considered extremely dangerous and tamped down on far more strongly than the most virulent bigots and fascists. Populism is how you win votes, but only one form of populism is allowed. For now, at least.

Fascism requires an authoritarian state. If you don't want the horrors of the 20th century, be it fascists with a world war, or socialism with even more deaths despite being in peacetime, you don't want authoritarianism to take hold, and you want to move power out of the state.

Re: The Going Dark initiative or ProtectEU is a Chat Control 3.0 attempt

#195

Post by elestor »

vbezhenar wrote: post #192
Jigsy wrote: post #153

The problem with "child abuse" is that some countries classify drawing things as "child abuse," or "rape," or "animal abuse." (Something I don't agree with.) I mentioned in another thread a few weeks back that I got raided by the British police last February for "uploading/downloading "illegal" anime artwork on one of the (anime) artwork websites we're criminally investigating." (Yes, the British police are criminall…

What's the point of criminalising hand-made pictures? I just don't understand it. I could understand the point of criminalising child porn photos, as producing these photos obviously requires violating other laws (actually not obviously, as you can dress adult actors to look like children, but whatever). But things that are obviously drawn without any involvement of real children, what's wrong with them? Just keep th…

I'd say it makes a lot of sense. It likely encourages pedophilia, meaning people that consume such things will often adopt a wrong idea of what's okay. It's similar to the way that regular porn affects the brain. I understand where you're coming from, though and I get your point, but I feel if someone consumes a lot of media of a certain type, they begin to 'embody' that media.

Just don't goon.

Re: The Going Dark initiative or ProtectEU is a Chat Control 3.0 attempt

#196

Post by AlecSchueler »

vbezhenar wrote: post #192
Jigsy wrote: post #153

The problem with "child abuse" is that some countries classify drawing things as "child abuse," or "rape," or "animal abuse." (Something I don't agree with.) I mentioned in another thread a few weeks back that I got raided by the British police last February for "uploading/downloading "illegal" anime artwork on one of the (anime) artwork websites we're criminally investigating." (Yes, the British police are criminall…

What's the point of criminalising hand-made pictures? I just don't understand it. I could understand the point of criminalising child porn photos, as producing these photos obviously requires violating other laws (actually not obviously, as you can dress adult actors to look like children, but whatever). But things that are obviously drawn without any involvement of real children, what's wrong with them? Just keep th…

It normalises a market for abuse imagery and pornographic escalation is a known phenomenon.

Re: The Going Dark initiative or ProtectEU is a Chat Control 3.0 attempt

#197

Post by AlecSchueler »

pfortuny wrote: post #185
delusional wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't really connect what you're saying here. I understand that you think drawing loli (I imagine) shouldn't be classified as pedophelia, but what does the law say? Part of living in a society is compromise. I don't believe that certain stretches of road close to my home should have a 50kph speed limit, but when I get a ticket I also accept that I'm in the wrong. If you're of the opinion that drawing children havin…

The problem lies on the wide margin of interpretation those laws give the police. 50kph is a number. "Sexualized drawings of children" is certainly open to discussion.

I know it's HN and we love her numbers but legislation that requires interpretation by judge or jury isn't at all unusual. There are also several layers of oversight and courts of appeal in the UK, which are separate from the government.

Re: The Going Dark initiative or ProtectEU is a Chat Control 3.0 attempt

#198

Post by AlecSchueler »

jeffjeffbear wrote: post #168
left-struck wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it really depends on what kind of anime you’re talking about. Like if you’re watching one piece fan art and the British police raided you, absolutely ridiculous. If you’re looking at naked artistic depictions of minors then it’s clearly not just “anime artwork”. BTW I’m not saying that someone who looks at that should be treated the same way as someone who harms a child but I’m just saying the cultural accept…

> I think it really depends on what kind of anime you’re talking about Does it? If I draw a naked stick figure with boobs and say it is 14, is that morally wrong? At what point should a person care? Their point is that a drawing doesn't hurt people right?

> If I draw a naked stick figure with boobs and say it is 14, is that morally wrong? At what point should a person care?

No and I'm sure every judge in Britain would throw that case out.

> Their point is that a drawing doesn't hurt people right?

It can in certain circumstances encourage a market or normalise abusive behaviour.

Re: The Going Dark initiative or ProtectEU is a Chat Control 3.0 attempt

#199

Post by m000 »

SamDc73 wrote: post #122
Zealotux wrote: post #57

In the ancient Greek colony of Locri, any who proposed a new law would do so with a rope around their neck, if the law was voted down, they would get hanged. Food for thought.

U.S. lawmaking has a built-in ratchet effect: passing new laws is politically easier than repealing old ones. An easy way to solve this is all laws should have an expiration date by default.

But then how would all these lawyers be able to charge you $500/hour?

Re: The Going Dark initiative or ProtectEU is a Chat Control 3.0 attempt

#200

Post by Skwid »

fylo wrote: post #132
zen928 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intentionally misinformed citizens continued to charge the streets demanding "essential services" like barber shops need to be reopened and to intentionally dismantle and resist against all government protections on public safety during the pandemic (like wearing a mask during an active spreading event), literally while their grandparents and relatives slowly and painfully died on respirators in hospitals largely agr…

Masks and protocols around them were largely just theatre though. Only very expensive n95 or better type masks, which were properly fitted and handled would actually provide any sort of protection from covid. Even the eventual proponents of masks initially were against the idea as in many ways many of the responses to covid were directed politically, not practically.

Perhaps the messaging was different where you lived, but I don't believe any credible professional was suggesting those outside healthcare wear masks for their own protection. Mask mandates are to reduce the risk of others catching covid from you, a considerably easier task for which even cloth masks are usefully effective. There's a reason surgeons masks are still used.
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