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Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands

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Re: Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands

#191

Post by rib3ye »

tastyface wrote: post #183
rib3ye wrote: post #59

The US would be better off every American did attempt to expatriate. In my own experience, I quickly saw and stared to miss the many strengths of our way of life. For the curious about which country it was, see my username.

In contrast, every time I travel extensively outside the US, I wonder what the fuck we’re even doing with our unfathomable wealth. Crumbling infrastructure, horrendous healthcare, mass homelessness and human misery, all while our oligarchs sit atop their piles of gold and tell us to work harder.

Those issues are not unique to the US.

Re: Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands

#192

Post by neilv »

mothballed wrote: post #176
neilv wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(don't know why you were downvoted for an honest-sounding response) If I understand correctly, the reasoning is a kind of long-term best-practice thinking? And that best-practice is a high enough priority that it would prevent you from moving someplace that was otherwise better than a place that would let you have guns? Is it only reasoning, or it there also a psychological component, like you'd also feel unsafe with…

My reasoning is that if firearms are banned then the underlying threat is that violence will be used against me for obtaining them. I consider myself unsafe if 'legitimate' violence will be used against me despite the fact I have deprived no one of their life, liberty, or property.

Thanks, I have a better idea where you're coming from.

If I understand correctly, you have both practical (near-term or long-term) and also philosophical objections, to the power imbalance between citizen and state, when citizens can't have guns. And it's a high priority.

FWIW, I sympathize with vigilance. Though my own priorities around guns are different. I live in a fairly safe city, with good police. Where I live, the prevalence of citizen guns seems to create more problems than it solves. The problems I have don't seem to be solvable with guns. I might feel differently, if I lived in a less-safe place or in different circumstances.

Re: Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands

#193

Post by saulpw »

phantasmish wrote: post #148
saulpw wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are provisional ballots, not counted unless things are close. And sometimes not even counted then.

If things aren't close they don't need to be counted. It's a fact of voting that most folks can vote in every election they can for their entire lives and never make any difference whatsoever, as in, change zero outcomes. We have social pressure and propaganda otherwise to get people to do it, because if too many people rationally stay home then the system works poorly (in aggregate, that does change outcomes). It'd…

I do understand that, in principle. But having a mathematical reason to let some 'difficult' votes go uncounted gives ammunition to those who would put political pressure on vote counting for their advantage, while also making people in general feel disenfranchised. (We have a huge problem with turnout in the US in general, and the message you're presenting only adds fuel to that!) This is why I wrote "sometimes not even counted then", because we do have a kind of apathy towards these small and easily disenfranchisable groups, and once you open it a crack, it becomes easier for some partisan to drive a wedge into it (see Bush v Gore 2000).

Also, it's a mistake to think that the only result of voting is to produce the winner of the election. The margin matters also. A politician winning by a large margin (or even a majority) can claim a 'mandate'; one who only wins by a plurality will have more spirited opposition.

We've seen this in the most recent US election; imagine if small percentage of those who didn't vote in the solid blue states because their vote didn't matter (a refrain I've heard from many people) actually voted, and Trump swept the swing states but lost the popular vote. The entire political landscape would be different, and we might even have momentum in the coming years to abolish the Electoral College.

So if we are fans of liberal democracy, we should be doing everything in our power to structure the system to make people feel as though their voice and vote matters.

Re: Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands

#194

Post by tastyface »

rib3ye wrote: post #191
tastyface wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In contrast, every time I travel extensively outside the US, I wonder what the fuck we’re even doing with our unfathomable wealth. Crumbling infrastructure, horrendous healthcare, mass homelessness and human misery, all while our oligarchs sit atop their piles of gold and tell us to work harder.

Those issues are not unique to the US.

Pretty much everywhere in Europe has better public transit than the US. It's actually embarrassing.

Putting up a GoFundMe for healthcare expenses seems like a uniquely American phenomenon.

And there's simply no equivalent of something like skid row or the tenderloin in any major European city. We let our neediest simply... fall through the cracks. Then step over them on the way to work.

Re: Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands

#195

Post by archagon »

aa-jv wrote: post #52

Australian here, grew up in the great south-west, and then I lived in the USA for 15 years, decided it was bunk, switched to Europe and have now been in middle-Europe (Austria) for 18 years, with a year in the UK and a year in Japan, for context. My quality of life has increased dramatically with every move. Europe as a place to live is just so much better than Aus->USA ever was .. better health care, better food, be…

What's the reason you rank Australia below the US? As a San Franciscan, I recently visited Sydney and Melbourne for the first time and thought they were incredible. Food-wise, I don't think I had a single bad meal in Melbourne, and I wasn't even trying particularly hard to find the good stuff. I think I'd love the opportunity to live there someday.

Europe is wonderful, but to quote Joni Mitchell, "it's too old and cold and settled in its ways here." (Not to mention the looming spectre of war...)

Re: Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands

#196

Post by Tadpole9181 »

lunias wrote: post #53

Ah, yes. Of course, in the wake of the fall of the United States, everywhere else on earth will immediately flourish. Just my 2 cents, but before you leave, you might want to talk to some immigrants about what brought them to the United States in the first place.

As if immigrants fleeing Nazis in WWII 90 years ago or folk from less wealthy regions of the world today are a barometer for the state of the Netherlands?

The Netherlands is already doing well today, and don't have the grim outlooks of the current US. It's not perfect and the fall of the US would have enormous impacts, of course, but this seems like a total non sequitur.

Re: Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands

#197

Post by Tadpole9181 »

sifar wrote: post #190
moribvndvs wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That you'd give up so easily when your voice, presence, and vote, matters most. There have been concerted efforts over the last couple decades (arguably much longer) to erode these things; gerrymandering, voter roll purges, eliminating/restricting polling locations and absentee voting, corporations and wealthy individuals have basically unlimited spend on electioneering and lobbying giving them a disproportionate v…

And one thinks these things haven't been happening in other countries where one wishes to move? What the GP is probably trying to say is that what the US is going through at present has been the default state for most of the developing world. And these things have been eroding in many of the western democracies for the past decade. Those that have been able to preserve it may not be more attractive in culture, geogra…

The Netherlands is not a part of the developing world, so I'm not sure why GP would be making that point. The article is not a lit moving from the US to Venezuela.

Re: Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands

#198

Post by giardini »

jbstack wrote: post #44

I love the Netherlands and have spent a few months trying it out as a place to live. It's among my favourite places: moderate weather, friendly people, a high level of personal freedom, very high rate of English speakers, clean and modern environment, good international restaurants, lively town centres even in smaller towns, most towns have rivers / canals which make them very pleasant to walk around. I could list ma…

>"I love the Netherlands and have spent a few months trying it out as a place to live. It's among my favourite places: moderate weather, friendly people, a high level of personal freedom, very high rate of English speakers, clean and modern environment, good international restaurants, lively town centres even in smaller towns, most towns have rivers / canals which make them very pleasant to walk around. I could list many other positive things."

Yes, and about half the Netherlands is below sea level, something I cannot abide.

Re: Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands

#199

Post by karmakurtisaani »

47282847 wrote: post #167
mothballed wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guns and (relatively) freedom of speech (yes I'm aware it comes with asterisk) are the two big ones. If I left the USA it would probably be to a place with weak governance on these points in practice rather than on paper. Only Yemen, Iraq, Somaliland, parts of Pakistan, parts of Rojava and maybe KRG (Kurdistan), Idlib, and Palestine are only places I know of with looser (to me better) gun laws than America and out of…

May I ask, why you want guns? I honestly have no idea why one would want them.

My guess is sense of security. Although that just works if you ignore the fact that now everyone has more access to guns, including criminals! And they typically get to shoot first..

Re: Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands

#200

Post by karmakurtisaani »

jonkoops wrote: post #88
wrathofmonads wrote: post #58

I sometimes wonder whether the political attitudes of some immigrants and their descendants are shaped by negative experiences or family histories from their countries of origin. This might help explain why people with backgrounds in places like South Africa, the Levant, or Eastern Europe often express strong libertarian views or criticize institutions such as the European Union, progressive politics, or European bur…

Poland really is a great example of a modern EU state that has flourished, I am so proud of them, they deserve it.

I like to think their economy would be on par with France and Germany if it wasn't for the Russian occupation. But with the present growth, they'll get there soon enough!
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