Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Maybe you’re not trying

usefulfictions.substack.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

191–196 of 196 posts

Re: Maybe you’re not trying

#191

Post by h33t-l4x0r »

yetihehe wrote: post #138
txrx0000 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe OP's original implied position was "the universe is deterministic, so why even try", but I was able to convince them that trying is worth it regardless. In fact, the universe being deterministic would mean that it's always worth it to believe that you can accomplish something (if you want to increase the probability of accomplishing that thing). > You mean they have no choice and whichever decision they too…

From what we know, universe is not deterministic. For example even trying to calculate motion of two massive objects with gravity with good precision runs up against heisenberg limit. For massively complicated systems like out bodies, there is just too much uncertainty. Also from neurobiology we see that our brains operate at the limit of noise in neurons. We are as close to total noise on our neuronal links as possi…

Oh this is interesting, so you're saying the cloned fish "free-willed" themselves into having different personalities? Like one of them woke up one day and said "From now one I will be the sassy one."

I mean, it's a silly idea on it's face but let's say it's true: where did that thought come from? It came from a long sequence of effects that followed prior causes (starting with the Big Bang), plenty of quantum noise, I have no objection to that (superpositions collapsing / parallel universes forking) and ends with tiny neurons firing in a fish brain, do you not agree?

So where's the free will?

Re: Maybe you’re not trying

#192

Post by yetihehe »

h33t-l4x0r wrote: post #191
yetihehe wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what we know, universe is not deterministic. For example even trying to calculate motion of two massive objects with gravity with good precision runs up against heisenberg limit. For massively complicated systems like out bodies, there is just too much uncertainty. Also from neurobiology we see that our brains operate at the limit of noise in neurons. We are as close to total noise on our neuronal links as possi…

Oh this is interesting, so you're saying the cloned fish "free-willed" themselves into having different personalities? Like one of them woke up one day and said "From now one I will be the sassy one." I mean, it's a silly idea on it's face but let's say it's true: where did that thought come from? It came from a long sequence of effects that followed prior causes (starting with the Big Bang), plenty of quantum noise,…

I think that free will ends up in that randomness of neurons firing. That can't be really predicted and steered. Free will is essentially freedom from manipulation/overriding external to the entity having free will. Theoretically that doesn't even need randomness.

And I don't think those fish free willed themselves. They just grew more random due to randomness inherent in our universe, despite us trying to force them into being exact. This was example of randomness of complicated biological processes, not of free will.

Re: Maybe you’re not trying

#193

Post by txrx0000 »

h33t-l4x0r wrote: post #191
yetihehe wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what we know, universe is not deterministic. For example even trying to calculate motion of two massive objects with gravity with good precision runs up against heisenberg limit. For massively complicated systems like out bodies, there is just too much uncertainty. Also from neurobiology we see that our brains operate at the limit of noise in neurons. We are as close to total noise on our neuronal links as possi…

Oh this is interesting, so you're saying the cloned fish "free-willed" themselves into having different personalities? Like one of them woke up one day and said "From now one I will be the sassy one." I mean, it's a silly idea on it's face but let's say it's true: where did that thought come from? It came from a long sequence of effects that followed prior causes (starting with the Big Bang), plenty of quantum noise,…

Are you guys even talking about the same thing? Because it doesn't seem like you are. You should try to define "free will" first and know exactly what you mean by it. Otherwise you're just arguing over the definition.

Re: Maybe you’re not trying

#194

Post by yetihehe »

txrx0000 wrote: post #193
h33t-l4x0r wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh this is interesting, so you're saying the cloned fish "free-willed" themselves into having different personalities? Like one of them woke up one day and said "From now one I will be the sassy one." I mean, it's a silly idea on it's face but let's say it's true: where did that thought come from? It came from a long sequence of effects that followed prior causes (starting with the Big Bang), plenty of quantum noise,…

Are you guys even talking about the same thing? Because it doesn't seem like you are. You should try to define "free will" first and know exactly what you mean by it. Otherwise you're just arguing over the definition.

I agree with you. Like I said in sibling comment: Free will is essentially freedom from manipulation/overriding external to the entity having free will.

Re: Maybe you’re not trying

#195

Post by gonational »

abhaynayar wrote: post #134

I have some qualm with "agency is important" type thinking because when I was in a good situation in life with "moderate" difficulty which I overcame I called it me being agentic. However, when I was in situations in life which were bad and totally out of my control and to the best of my ability I couldn't come out of them, I realized it's pretty much all just luck and circumstance. Just because you're not emotionall…

Putting your comment into simpler terms reveals the nature of your thinking:

When you were doing good you were sure it was your fault, but when you were doing bad you were sure that it was not your fault.

Do you see how that sounds?

Re: Maybe you’re not trying

#196

Post by xaoz »

abhaynayar wrote: post #134

I have some qualm with "agency is important" type thinking because when I was in a good situation in life with "moderate" difficulty which I overcame I called it me being agentic. However, when I was in situations in life which were bad and totally out of my control and to the best of my ability I couldn't come out of them, I realized it's pretty much all just luck and circumstance. Just because you're not emotionall…

Reminds me of this guy https://www.reddit.com/r/homeless/comments/1c9vs22/millionai...

Millionaire who believed he could go from homeless to $1m again in 12 months as an experiment (with advantages) with something more or less like agency alone.

Post reply on HN