Bret Victor: Learnable Programming • Hacker News Board

Re: Bret Victor: Learnable Programming

#191

Post by faceyspacey » Sat, Sep 29, 2012, 11:52 AM UTC

russelluresti wrote: post #185

laughinghan wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not being downvoted because "people have a problem with the idea of testing a solution". You are being downvoted because your tone suggests you categorically dismissed a groundbreaking project because its introductory article wasn't a scholarly work bristling with citations. "Numbers, proof, evidence" tend to be marks of an excellent article. But an incredible amount of work clearly went into this article, an…

First, this isn't Bret's introductory article on this topic. As far as I know, his first talk about this came in January of this year (watch the Inventing on Principle video on Vimeo). Granted, 7-8 months isn't a super long time, but he has never built/tested his ideas, yet asserts them as if they were proven facts. Also, I know why I'm being down-voted. Bret is an inspiring person. His Vimeo talk, specifically, is v…

Russel your problem here is that we are looking at something that is about to change technology forever and you are taking the least productive path to discuss it. It's very clear to the majority of us that this is big! It's not tested simply because it's so new and innovative. We are fortunate enough to be the first ones to have this insight shared with. It's now our job to make amazing projects that put it to use and inherently test/prove it. That's what Brett is trying to do here.

I don't think you really do grasp the magic of what he has come up with. Yes you saw his video 8 months ago. But if you did truly grok what he is putting forth, you wouldn't make this generic rebuttal about whether its tested or not. That can be applied to anything.

We come to hacker news to get the kernels of the newest innovation that is happening around the world before anyone else. If you require ideas to be tested before you do anything with it, you will be late to the party. Your loss.

Now Russel can you please stop standing up for this point. It's unfortunately the first thread on this awesome piece and a waste of our energies to discuss.

Lets discuss how we are going to implement this watershed idea for innovation!!

Re: Bret Victor: Learnable Programming

#192

Post by faceyspacey » Sat, Sep 29, 2012, 4:58 PM UTC

russelluresti wrote: post #186

readymade wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're misreading my reply. It's not that real world innovation isn't tested and iterated on, quite the opposite. The Wright Brothers are exactly that model and I don't dispute that at all. What I'm drawing a distinction between is this approach to innovation, which is necessarily iterative and based on incremental improvements to prior art, and another approach which makes larger conceptual leaps and may not…

You're right, I did misread your reply - I originally thought you said it was innovation that took laboratory time. Though, now that you've explained it further, I'm still not sure I agree with the concept. Pure research follows a specific method - you form ideas, form a hypothesis, create an experiment, and test your hypothesis, then revise and test again. There is nothing, ever, that is not tested. Though, you can…

you again, Russel ;). come on man. don't you get it: his point is to inspire the likes of us. It's up to you and I to do something with this. If you're not the one up to the task, fine, but stop putting forth a mindset that won't inspire others to do something with this, e.g. TEST IT!

also, the stuff will work. It's dead obvious that it's the future. Take a step back, take a breath, open your mind and stop trying to backup your initial point about "where's the evidence?" and just agree this is magical and some big things will come out of it.

if you can't see that, and can't allow yourself to be wrong for a second, then fine, you're a regular guy--not someone we expect to see making the amazing startups that will put Bret Victor's stuff to use.

Re: Bret Victor: Learnable Programming

#193

Post by faceyspacey » Sat, Sep 29, 2012, 5:07 PM UTC

ygra wrote: post #161

neilk wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that Bret is advocating that this is the way all programming should be. That would be strictly impossible, as some functions have totally non-linear effects on their output, so you couldn't easily connect one to the other with handy arrows and highlighted stuff. The geometry example is chosen because it's easy to make a mapping between the space of function inputs and visual outputs. And each parameter…

Java's documentation, while allowing to document each parameter, still doesn't make the actual result of changing a parameter obvious to a program. In Bret's video, where hovering over a parameter would show what exactly would change – that requires either machine-readable metadata (i.e. x position of top-left corner of the shape) or additional programming to make available. Javadoc as it exists is just a semi-struct…

he's suggesting we as tech startup entrepreneur type guys go out and imagine the actual solutions that can work across a number of problems based on the examples he's provided.

I'm absolutely so surprised by the lack of imagination here at HN. This is startup ideas gold right here, and none of you seem to have the mental capabilities to dig it out and do something with it. You all want to find something wrong with it.

Ever since I've been tracking Bret Victor, my head has been spinning with tons of practical ideas we can implement today to make us more productive at programming. Light Table is a fantastic start. What's the problem here, guys! You guys just don't want to admit the way you've been coding thus far will soon be obsolete and you've been wasting your time. Yes, your skills will eventually be worthless.